2002 Raise/Lower switch question

[doug7740]

Like our Thunderbirds, the Worldwide Diagnostic System or the New Generation STAR Tester mentioned in the flowchart is old technology, that's why you can buy one for under $500.00. The way I see it is having such a tool will save you money in the long run, besides part of the fun of the hobby is maintaining and repairing your own vehicle.

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doug7740
1955 Thunderbird Blue

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[TopDownMadness]

Good info. Seems the two flavors of readers that would display posted FEM/REM codes must be NGS licensed. The 1st gen used model like posted are around $300-$1000 needing the right card, a serious manual study, and a hope it won't wipe the ROM. The other is the newest IDS diag. beast, shipped with a laptop and a nifty carry case for $5000. I thought the codes, even though OEM specific, may be public domain after 20 years? Guess not, they license the privilege to reveal their non-generic codes. Guess it's common to other brands, dealers, shops, etc. not bashing Ford. The new color display "reads all systems" readers clearly do not read any Ford module data link codes. I think advanced tasks like - fuel trim, VIN over-writing, shift points, and other tweaks should be spendy, licensed dealer/shop devices. But why showing read-only stored codes is such a secret?

 

[JoeMacFQV]

Thanks all for the participation here. Sorry for being delinquent in follow-up, been at the beach the last week for some R&R. Also working to restore an old 1950 truck, so sharing my time.

Anyway, I did some more trouble-shooting today. I've tried now 4 different "consumer-grade" scanners and nothing gives an option for FEM/REM diagnostics... I'm guessing you have to have the multi-hundred or thousand dollar units to get that.

• In addition, no fault codes related to the FEM or REM or to anything related to the top.
• I did verify the motor works by going in directly to C4063 & C4064 with 12v and GND.
• I also verified the 2 relays are also working as designed (12v and resistance tests on them).
• I've obtained a replacement Raise/Lower switch and it works the same as the original switch.
• I've previously (in the last year or so) replaced the FEM due a near total melt-down of that unit, and so it seems unlikely to be it (though not impossible).
• That starts to lead to the REM being the issue since there are no other detected faults and its the only other main electronics component. Unfortunately though, these things, if you can even find them, are relatively expensive so not sure I'm willing to plunk down $500 or so on a educated guess to try that for a solution.

Would it make sense at this point to pay Ford the $150 diagnostic fee to see if they are able to detect the actual fault ? I've still got to go through some of the other continuity tests and other checklist items, but frankly its highly unlikely for these to be the issue as I've had no wrecks with the car and its been stored in the garage in moderate temperatures and humidity and only driven about 500 miles/yr). I'm about ready to be done with this thing so I can move on to more fun projects (i.e. the 1950 truck I mentioned earlier 🙂.

As noted before, I appreciate everyone's feedback and suggestions on this.

 

[TopDownMadness]

Maybe get back with final fix? So many threads fizzle out with no follow up.

Thinking of REM hate, you can use the old switch and fab a bracket to mount it near the trunk relay box. Open the trunk to raise/lower with a local switch. Not invasive, totally reversible, and MacGyver would be proud!

 

[JoeMacFQV]

Oh… like that idea. Does anyone know if the motor has built-in stops going up and/or down so it doesn’t over-run ? Bypassing the FEM/REM could bypass a safety switch, although nothing shows in the schematic

 

[TopDownMadness]

You may be putting too much logic into the REM logic? Even though commanded by the FEM, it's kinda an on/off switching box. There are no apparent detect (limit) switches or description of automatic shut down when extended/retracted. Sorry, mine is new (to me) and still has the hardtop on so I don't know what happens when you pin the switch down? You could try a mock-up and listen to the motor load when maxed. Thinking it will work for motion and electrically but should take caution on the max positions when testing. The REM counting motor pulses, slit-wheel optics, or magic current monitoring is unlikely. Limit switches maybe, but they're not to be found. Thinking they're over-engineered dumb boxes. Someone may chime in but guessing the motor is clutched and when maxed or if the top mechanism binds, it whirs away to prevent cursing?

 

[JoeMacFQV]

Thanks TopDown, seems likely a simple clutch of some sort is used.

One of my scan tools is a Foxwell NT530 which has manufacturer (e.g. Ford, BMW) "packages" that can be installed for extended capabilities. On my BMW it indeed gave me additional readings. Initial contact with them indicates that they can read the REM (ECU info, Read codes, Erase codes, Live Data, Active test). I'm double checking with them if it also can read the FEM also (which would seem logical if they already read the REM). The NT530 is around $175 with 1 included manf. software package, or $80 as an additional 2nd package. I'm likely gonna give this a try for $80 (cheaper than the dealer diagnostic).... will report back if it works.

 

[TopDownMadness]

Wow, I've spotted Foxwell in the Amazon sea of scanners that review well and are recommended. I peeked at the dark-side to see if Ebay, Ali-Baba or other 'fine vendor' may have 'borrowed' the Ford lingo viewed with a USB/ODBII connected laptop. Nope, no software/notebook snooper to be found. Looking forward to your tests but thinking there still may be a wall?

Scanners (that work) may use a proprietary 'key' requiring the license to view any OEM specific stored codes? It bugs me other manufactures share the same codes and will reveal them when scanned indicating they are simply stored. Pretty sure the scanner must be NGS compatible to work with these devils? I also own and tolerate BMW's and MINI's. I have a reader with the BMW secret sauce that tells all and wasn't a crazy cost. And I thought this would be easy with a Ford! For once, BMW made it less difficult than Ford. Who-Da-Thunk?

 

[JoeMacFQV]

So interaction with Foxwell indicates they only support Diagnostics on the REM. They are in China so I'm not 100% sure we are on the same page, they seem to indicate that the 2002 'Bird only has a REM and so that's what that is all they support... OR they're saying the REM was all they designed to support (which seems odd, except for the secret sauce thing as you mention). Still poking at them to see if they'll drop the price of let me "test" to see if indeed it is incomplete (they hate that kind of thing ;-)

 

[TopDownMadness]

Ha, tech support from Asia is always a treat. I see many scanner manufacturers trying to leap-frog each other. They claim it performs ABS bleed jittering and you think great, hate an air-bound line. But when you read the manual it's a function that works only on a 79 Yugo if you park it on a 45 degree slope. Ya don't catch that when it's listed as a bullet point. My 'GODIAG' scanner has bi-directional features but never certain just how 'clean' their code is that can over-write. Not much trust there. The real-time analysis feature is somewhat useful if you were looking for a twitchy O2 sensor or something live. So, the extra bucks for some of the extended features is worthy. A Snap-On with the goods is $1500 and still can't read NGS. So, no loss having a go with Foxwell's R&D.

It's not just the deluxe consumer scanners that claim more than they are. I'm concerned about the used, Ebay 'Rotunda' units with PCMCIA cards that were tossed around in tool boxes for years. Still looking at operation but it appears the thing can upload your entire PCM data onto the card where it's manipulated and then downloaded back. Used for revision changes and complete ROM wipes. Yikes! Heard of the term 'bricking'? But it can make a nifty coded key from a blank in around two days of R&D matching your VIN. Simply interface her up with USB-1 and a Tesla Coil.

 

[edward301]

I have the Foxwell NT 644 code tool, it is great. Helped me clear the ABS light, can read all four wheel sensors
and tell what speed each wheel is sensing. I have not tried to see if it can communicate with the FEM or REM.
I do know it communicates with the ECU, have not tried much else.

 

[JoeMacFQV]

Actually was able to borrow a Snap-On SOLUS Edge (#EESC320) scan tool from a mechanic to try. It saw the FEM and REM but only had minimal characteristics it could report (e.g. door open/closed, window up/down, turn signal on/off, etc.). What it didn't have was anything related to sensing state of the convertible top up/down or even the switch signaling raise/lower. As was previously suggested, seems like maybe Ford masks some details so that only their service centers can read them.... shame on them if true, but seems like it at this point.

As for the NT644, if you are able to test with it to see if it can read the FEM and REM and in particular the state of the Raise/Lower switch and the top position... that would be a great help. Would only take maybe 15 minutes 🙂

 

[TopDownMadness]

Interesting. Did the Solus indicate FEM/REM in the display or just provide static status of listed items? Looking for 'real-time' response or updates when you change something like it's reading the data stream live.

Apparently, a full blown NGS device is the ticket. Seems the 'wall' may be for dealer protection and under agreements? They may have batched all dealer level service diags and codes behind the NGS license essentially masking consumer view of stored codes? Makes sense, the devices have incredible capability that even can over-write data. That may have been the concern where home users could be dangerous with the tool and cause warrantee issues? So why not a read-only flavor that we could have a peek! Thinking it doesn't exist. Grrrr... licensing!

One thought, you indicated the FEM was rebuilt. Should a dealer test with their magical scanner to verify there is no up/down data transferred, the rebuilder may give it a fix for a good number? Otherwise... relay coil ground taps are our friends. 🙂

 

[JoeMacFQV]

So the SnapOn unit actually had FEM and REM sections but nothing related to the top or raise/lower. You could live monitor , for instance turn signal would constantly flip on then off.

At this point my easy fix is to parallel a second raise / lower dash switch to apply the ground to the actual raise/lower relays. Just working with grounds so parallel circuits shouldn’t cause a problem. Then if I ever fix the issue, it’ll still work too. I’ll shoot a couple of pictures when I get it done and working, just trying to find a connector,
/harness for the relay now. Stay tuned

 

[JoeMacFQV]

Hi all... took a few days to get this project completed, but I now have a working Convertible top.. Yeah. I did cheat though, I didn't actually get the primary mechanisms to work, but Plan B ended up being fairly simple. I'll document for anyone else that abhors spending $500+ for a new FEM or REM when the only issue is the convertible top won't go up or down. Make note, I have a 2002 Bird, note sure if all version of this vintage series are the same... so do your research first.

Schematically, Plan B is pretty straight-forward as can be seen in the marked up picture attached. C4063 and C4064 which is accessed by removing the trunk center pocket and lifting up a little flap to get to the connector panel (4 plug-in relays, of which only 3 are occupied). The outer two are the ones of interest here, The Lower and Raise relays. Essentially all you need to do is apply a ground to pin 85 to energize one or the other relays and the top motor is directly engaged, bypassing all the "smart" electronics. Note, this also means some convenience (e.g. door window nudge down) and safety aspects (e.g detection of hardtop installed) are bypassed to, so make sure you understand the consequences if trying this yourself.

Cleverly enough, the actual Raise/Lower switch from the dash (picture 4) does exactly what you want. I hand-marked the C2138 connector assignment for the 3 pins needed from this switch (note apparently some Birds used a 6-pin switch, some an 8-pin, but I did a side-by-side comparison so should be easy to adapt. The trick is either finding the connector or harness to adapt to for this purpose, or in my case I found the perfect little push-on connector at Advance Auto (picture 3). Next you just crimp a wires into the slide-on and push them onto the Raise/Lower switch. Mine took a little spreading with a flat-blade screwdriver, but otherwise was pretty simple.

Continued in next post.

 

[JoeMacFQV]

The complete switch looks like below.


Next I contrived a bracket from a couple of metal strips from Home Depot. Bending them to fit the switch tightly and then bending a second piece to be able to attach it to one of the frame bolts right near the relay box. I pop-riveted all this together for a nice tight fit and bolted it to the frame so it would loop over the decorative passenger side trunk insert

 

[JoeMacFQV]

For some reason I must have hit a limit as to max size of a thread or something, so can't upload the remaining pictures... if you are interested shoot me an email and I'll send them to you directly.

 

[JoeMacFQV]

Follow-up on the Foxwell NT530 and Ford specific code add-on.

I actually sprung for the FORD specific code set for this scanner ($80), rather than taking it to the dealer. As noted previously, I had used a multi-thousand Snap-On scanner with not great results, so I was surprised that this NT530 seemed to do the trick, or most of the trick anyway. It did not have a FEM specific analysis section, but did have one for the REM. I could see
-Convertible Top Down output
-Convertible Top Up output
-Hardtop rear defrost relay status
-Hardtop sense switch status
-and others (brake, etc.)

I could watch LIVE to see things trigger as they would happen, and I could even go in from the scanner and tell the system things happened and see the result. Must say, was pretty impressed. In the end it told me there was a serial link communication issue, which means either the FEM or REM is the cause it would seem... duh, had figured that out at this point. So my Plan B as noted above was the best solution for me (at least for now).

 

[Retro Bob]

In answer to one of your questions 2002. FEM'S are different than 2003-2005 because of the windshield wiper change. (everything else works). REM'S are interchangeable for all years.

 

[TopDownMadness]

Nice work-around and think, the factory saved two 18ga. wires from the dash to the trunk by adding four layers of complication. Nice thought through work, tapping method, and documentation. Interesting on the Foxwell add-on. Sounds worthy over the Ebay mystery dealer boxes.

I'm still wondering about "Hardtop sense switch status" as a switch or simply the load from the defroster circuit. Ever find a physical switch hiding? How many total conductors attach to the top connector? I heard two - defrost power and ground. A separate switch needs a dedicated conductor if they share ground? That means three to four pins for the hard top. Not seeing that.

Nice to see the follow-up. These things often die a natural death where you never know what the owner ended up doing? I like these forums for the tech knowledge shared. This forum is pretty cool not having to host images off site. I hope to see more contributors and put up a few DIY's myself. Not a shocker they limit images just have to work with it. So, if they issue a 'valuable post trophy', you sir should be a recipient!