2005 limp mode, codes p0507, p2104, p2106

[Marianne]

Hi,

I have a 2005 Thunderbird, 50K miles. All of a sudden it went into limp mode. Took to Lincoln dealer and codes p0507, p2104, p2106.
Dealer performed pinpoint tests KE, QE.Says need to replace Throttle Body. ($1400). Any advice would be very much appreciated. Also price ranges.
I am in Sarasota, Florida if you know of a good Thunderbird mechanic here.

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[biddle]

Hi,

I have a 2005 Thunderbird, 50K miles. All of a sudden it went into limp mode. Took to Lincoln dealer and codes p0507, p2104, p2106.
Dealer performed pinpoint tests KE, QE.Says need to replace Throttle Body. ($1400). Any advice would be very much appreciated. Also price ranges.
I am in Sarasota, Florida if you know of a good Thunderbird mechanic here.

We've had members in the past report the P2104 and P2106 code and were told to replace the Throttle Body, however, that did not fix the problem because it was actually the Throttle Position Sensor. Here's a post for example- https://forums.fordthunderbirdforum.com/threads/2004-limp-mode-problems.10082/post-73888 and here is another one- https://forums.fordthunderbirdforum...des-coming-from-cop-failures.11863/post-72818

The TPS is actually an issue on lots of vehicles once they reach this age. For example, we own a 2004 Jeep Wrangler, but the TPS can be cleaned on it, and it works like brand new again.

It is far more likely that a TPS has gone bad than a Throttle body, so I would at the least question them and asked them if they are 100% certain it's the Throttle body and not the TPS!


On a side note, throttle body's can also be cleaned with throttle body cleaner, of course, no dealership is going to offer this as an option.

 

[Marianne]

Thank you. I will definitely ask them tomorrow. Do you think a dealer would take my suggestion? They seem to want to go by the book and do what their codes say. Or should I take it to a mechanic who may be more willing to try cleaning the tos and throttle body first?

 

[biddle]

Thank you. I will definitely ask them tomorrow. Do you think a dealer would take my suggestion? They seem to want to go by the book and do what their codes say. Or should I take it to a mechanic who may be more willing to try cleaning the tos and throttle body first?

You are not making a suggestion you are asking a question. I would at the least question them and asked them if they are 100% certain it's the Throttle body and not the TPS!

 

[PCR59]

We've had members in the past report the P2104 and P2106 code and were told to replace the Throttle Body, however, that did not fix the problem because it was actually the Throttle Position Sensor. Here's a post for example- https://forums.fordthunderbirdforum.com/threads/2004-limp-mode-problems.10082/post-73888 and here is another one- https://forums.fordthunderbirdforum...des-coming-from-cop-failures.11863/post-72818

The TPS is actually an issue on lots of vehicles once they reach this age. For example, we own a 2004 Jeep Wrangler, but the TPS can be cleaned on it, and it works like brand new again.

It is far more likely that a TPS has gone bad than a Throttle body, so I would at the least question them and asked them if they are 100% certain it's the Throttle body and not the TPS!


On a side note, throttle body's can also be cleaned with throttle body cleaner, of course, no dealership is going to offer this as an option.

Good advice, very rarely ever the throttle body.

 

[doug7740]

Hi,

I have a 2005 Thunderbird, 50K miles. All of a sudden it went into limp mode. Took to Lincoln dealer and codes p0507, p2104, p2106.
Dealer performed pinpoint tests KE, QE.Says need to replace Throttle Body. ($1400). Any advice would be very much appreciated. Also price ranges.
I am in Sarasota, Florida if you know of a good Thunderbird mechanic here.

@Marianne,

Technical Service Bulletin 05-14-4 explains how replacing the Throttle Position Sensor and reprogramming the Powertrain Control Module will correct code P2106. The Ford dealer should have known about this TSB instead of replacing the throttle body.

The dealer should charge you the cost of the TPS kit, plus 1.4 hours labor.

doug7740
1955 Thunderbird Blue

 

[Marianne]

Doug,
Thank you very much for this information. I have decided not to get my Thunderbird repaired at the Lincoln Dealer, so now I am trying to find a good local mechanic who knows the 2005 TBird and will try to repair these problems as reasonably as possible.
My question for you, and I apologize for my ignorance, is that I have several codes at this time: P0507, P2104 and P2106. The Dealer performed pinpoint tests KE, QE. What are those tests? They supposedly convinced the Dealer that I need a new Throttle Body.

I do want to try the easier and cheaper repairs first. Thank you for all your help in this matter.
I hope I can find a mechanic willing to try suggestions like yours.

 

[doug7740]

Pinpoint test KE is an Idle Air Control pinpoint test. This test should be performed when there are high idle concerns or stalling along with DTC P0505, P0506 or P0511. Pinpoint test KE tests the Idle Air Control system, the Evaporative Purge Valve, the Positive Crankcase Valve system, the Exhaust Gas Recirculation system, or anything that would cause a high idle or stalling condition.

Pinpoint Test QE is an Electronic Throttle Control pinpoint test. This test should be performed when DTC P2104, P2105 or P2110 are present.

DTC P0507 is informational only for Idle Air Control System RPM higher than expected.



Since there is a Technical Service Bulletin for DTC P2106 and P2135, I would follow the Technical Service Bulletin before I replaced the throttle body.

doug7740
1955 Thunderbird Blue

 

[biddle]

They supposedly convinced the Dealer that I need a new Throttle Body.

I do want to try the easier and cheaper repairs first..

Replacing the throttle body and/or the TPS is something just about any mechanic can do. I'd definitely look at the Google/Yelp reviews at some shops in your area and let them know what you were told at the dealership and well as feedback from others. Make sure you get back to us and let us know what the final resolution was.

 

[Marianne]

UPDATE: Please comment as I need more advice.

My 2005 Thunderbird was towed to a very highly recommended auto mechanic yesterday.

This morning I got a call saying that they drive my car 19 miles and it drive perfectly fine. The check engine light is still on and the codes are there but they wanted to know how the car was driving for me.

I told him that the car was in limp mode and I had to crawl along the road to my home.

So now what?

I said that if it’s riding ok today, maybe it just needs a cleaning. Was that a good thing to say? What should I do now?

Is this normal? If the dealer wanted to replace the Throttle Body for $1400 can the car drive fine for 19 miles?

When they took the car I suggested everything you all mentioned. The TOS, possibly a cleaning of the parts, etc

Please send advice. Thank you!

 

[biddle]

I said that if it’s riding ok today, maybe it just needs a cleaning. Was that a good thing to say? What should I do now?

Nothing has changed, so everything that was previously said remains the same. You need to find someone to repair your car. Nobody on here is telling you what is wrong with your car, or what you should or should not do, we are just giving you information based on personal experience or prior owner reports to help you with your decision.

With that said as most folks on here have mentioned before you replace the Throttle body, I would ask if the shop is 100% sure that is the problem or if could it be the TPS. In regards to cleaning the Throttle body, this is typical something owners do themselves at home, not the shop.

On a side note, the COPS are also know to put the car in limp mode.

 

[Marianne]

I got a call today from the mechanic. Here's what he says about my 2005 Thunderbird. First of all, they erased the throttle body error codes and they havent reappeared. They drove the car at least 50 miles with no problems. They checked the throttle Body and it looked ok.

They did discover 2 things needing repair:
1) The thermostat housing is leaking coolant and needs to be replaced. Thats ~ $ 740. The Dealer never said I had coolant leaking; they said I have oil leaks. The mechanic checked for oil leaks and says none are evident.
2) The serpentine belt has cracks and needs replacement.

Total Repair estimate $1300.

When I asked about the Throttle Body he said it may have been an electrical glitch but he thinks no reason to replace the TPS or Throttle Body.

So how could the Lincoln Dealer not notice the Coolant leaking from the Thermostat Housing? And how could the Dealer not notice the Serpentine Belt cracks? The Dealer said I had oil leaks costing over $1000.

Any comments are very welcome. This mechanic has an excellent reputation but I am paying $1300 and I hope I am doing the right thing. I hope the Throttle Body codes won't reappear.

 

[biddle]

I got a call today from the mechanic. Here's what he says about my 2005 Thunderbird. First of all, they erased the throttle body error codes and they haven't reappeared. They drove the car at least 50 miles with no problems. They checked the throttle Body and it looked ok. When I asked about the Throttle Body he said it may have been an electrical glitch but he thinks no reason to replace the TPS or Throttle Body.

Time will tell on this one for sure. If the codes come back, you know there is still an issue there. @doug7740 would know more about the reliability of the codes and how long it may take for them to return after being reset if there is an issue.

They did discover 2 things needing repair:
1) The thermostat housing is leaking coolant and needs to be replaced. That's ~ $ 740. The Dealer never said I had coolant leaking; they said I have oil leaks. The mechanic checked for oil leaks and says none are evident.

This is definitely a commonly reported issue since the housing is plastic. No surprises here. Click the Thermostat housing text to see that thread.

Since you said your car went into limp mode initially, I would definitely make sure that you don't have any issues with the Valve Cover Gasket and the COPS and Spark Plugs which also cause misfires and limp mode.

 

[doug7740]

Marianne,

Just to clarify, the Lincoln dealer is not the one who is doing the repairs and you had your vehicle towed to a highly recommended auto technician who is now repairing your vehicle. Is that correct?

When I worked at the dealership:

1. I would diagnose the customer’s concern, which in your case was the illumination of the wrench light and the vehicle going into limp mode.
2. The next thing I would do is to perform a multipoint inspection to make the customer aware of any other potential problems.

Before retiring, I worked as a dealership technician for 40 years and I found that by doing diagnosis and inspections the way I did helped the customer make a more informed decision. Doing it that way wasn’t always easy, because sometimes customers didn’t want to hear or believe what I was telling them.

Nowhere in your post did you mention that you were having problems with fluid leaks of any kind, were you aware of these leaks or were they discovered during a multipoint inspection? Also, was the cracked serpentine belt discovered during the multipoint inspection?

The estimate of $1,300.00 to replace the thermostat housing and the serpentine belt seems kind of high to me. According to ALLDATA; the cost of the thermostat housing is $129.33 and the labor to replace it is 1.4 hours. The cost of the serpentine belt is $36.73 and the labor to replace it is 0.5 hours.



When the wrench light or Check Engine light illuminates, codes and freeze frame data are stored. Technicians use this information to diagnose the customer’s concern. Most codes will not put the car into limp mode; however any code that has to do with the throttle body or the throttle position sensor will.

Technicians also use Technical Service Bulletins, because this information is provided by the manufacturer to correct known concerns, in your case Technical Service Bulletin 05-14-04. Why hasn’t the dealer or the highly recommended auto technician performed Technical Service Bulletin 05-14-04?

doug7740
1955 Thunderbird Blue

 

[biddle]

Marianne,

Just to clarify, the Lincoln dealer is not the one who is doing the repairs and you had your vehicle towed to a highly recommended auto technician who is now repairing your vehicle. Is that correct?

The Lincoln dealer told her there were oil leaks but didn't mention any coolant leaks or a cracked belt. It's at another local mechanic now who says it has coolant leaks and no oil leaks.

I suspect there will be more codes again in the near future, what about you? Seems very unlikely a "glitch" caused the car to throw three codes that stayed on until they were reset, and put the car into limp mode.

I know that the TPS on some vehicles is known to cause intermittent issues toward the beginning of failure or if it is dirty.

 

[doug7740]

I agree with you, I don't believe that it may have been an electrical glitch either. It could be a throttle position sensor, a poor connection, a wiring issue or even a software update to the powertrain control module. Cars don't just repair themselves after clearing the code, that's why interpreting the freeze frame data is so important. When a code is set, the freeze frame data is also set. Freeze frame data tells you what the conditions were when the code was set. That not only helps a technician with the diagnoses, it also allows him to drive the vehicle under those conditions to see if the code returns.

Since the codes were cleared and there is no freeze frame data, the only thing that can be done it to wait and see if the codes return.

doug7740
1955 ThunderbirdBlue

 

[Marianne]

Wow, I am more confused now than ever. Did this great local mechanic not fix the codes I had and then overcharged me for other repairs? I am not disputing the thermostat housing and serprentine belts were in need of replacement, or even that the leak was coolant and not oil as the dealer had said. But it looks like I was overcharged almost $ 1,000? I am beginning to believe that mechanics do take advantage of women,

He did say that his best mechanic drove it and was scanning the engine as he drove, and nothing was looking wrong. Not sure what he meant, maybe you can explain? Was it the freeze frame? I do need to call tomorrow and ask pointed questions, so any advice would be great.

So now what can I do? I accepted the estimate but I now want an explanation. Can I use the quotes you both gave to see if I can get his price down? I am so disappointed. I definitely will plan to find another mechanic if (when) the codes come back.

 

[doug7740]

Marianne,

If you agreed to the estimate and the repairs were performed, there isn’t much you can do. I would ask the shop that repaired your car how much labor was charged for the repairs and what their labor rate is. AllData’s labor estimate is the average of how long it will take to do the repairs. Some shops feel that it will take more time to do the repairs, so they will charge more labor time.

If and when the codes return don’t go to another shop, take your car back to the shop that diagnosed and cleared the codes. If the shop misdiagnosed the reason your vehicle went into limp mode and set the fault codes, then they should diagnose the vehicle at no charge and possibly give you a discount on the repairs. The worst thing that you can do is jump from shop to shop for the same diagnosis and repair.

doug7740
1955Thunderbird Blue

 

[biddle]

But it looks like I was overcharged almost $ 1,000? I am beginning to believe that mechanics do take advantage of women,

What's the point of asking for advice on here if you were not going to use it? This reminds me of Proverbs 15:22 Plans fail for lack of counsel,
but with many advisers they succeed. *If* you did get overcharged, it's not necessary because you are a woman. I've had it happen to me and busted them because I got it looked at somewhere else. I even did a video on the franchise Christian Brothers Automotive trying to perform an unnecessary repair on my Mustang. This is like someone saying that got pulled over because they were black when they were going 20 MPH over the speed limit.

So now what can I do? I accepted the estimate but I now want an explanation. Can I use the quotes you both gave to see if I can get his price down? I am so disappointed. I definitely will plan to find another mechanic if (when) the codes come back.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what the average price for a replacement is, especially in today's world. It can be hard to find someone to fix your car properly. If you are worried about the price, you should have got other estimates or waited for replies here which came in the same day, so don't blame the mechanic.

 

[Marianne]

Marianne,

If you agreed to the estimate and the repairs were performed, there isn’t much you can do. I would ask the shop that repaired your car how much labor was charged for the repairs and what their labor rate is. AllData’s labor estimate is the average of how long it will take to do the repairs. Some shops feel that it will take more time to do the repairs, so they will charge more labor time.

If and when the codes return don’t go to another shop, take your car back to the shop that diagnosed and cleared the codes. If the shop misdiagnosed the reason your vehicle went into limp mode and set the fault codes, then they should diagnose the vehicle at no charge and possibly give you a discount on the repairs. The worst thing that you can do is jump from shop to shop for the same diagnosis and repair.

doug7740
1955Thunderbird Blue

I called the repair shop this morning. Told him that I thought his estimate was high and asked for the breakdown of charges.

They charge $ 134/hr for labor and it took 3.5-4 hours total to diagnose and replace the thermostat housing and the serpentine belt. The serpentine belt costs $50 and the thermostat housing was ~ $ 150. I’m disappointed with them and not very confident that the codes won’t come back. He says it happens all the time. Even so, $134 x 4 hrs = $536 for Labor + Parts $200 = $ $ 736. He did say $ 740 when he estimated, but then quickly said altogether it will be $ 1300, so I need ti find out what the extra $ 500 was for. At this point, I cannot do much more. I've called 3x asking for specifics and I should have been more careful.

I will hope for the best. Ended up paying $ 1300 for repairs the dealer never noticed. So I’m totally confused with all of them!

Lesson learned. I relied too much on their great reputation and accepted their estimate without waiting to hear from other owners. I have learned my lesson. In the future, I will get the estimate and research it before agreeing to anything.

Thanks @doug7740 and @biddle. I will follow your advice.