Sudden 57 Electrical Issue

[Boozeman]

Good afternoon, all -

Our '57 has been running and driving great - until Saturday. While driving in a neighborhood, the car suddenly quit. Totally shut down, no sputter or anything. It would't crank, although the gen and oil lights were illuminated. After a couple of minutes, we were able to crank the car back up. Made it another block, and the same thing happened. Popped the hood. Then, once it started to crank again, the positive battery wire got really hot and started smoking. I jumped out and yanked it off, and as I did, it made a couple of impressive arcs. Put it on a truck and took it back to the house. Obviously, something is going to ground. I pulled the starter and had it checked out by a shop. Starter's perfectly fine. Any suggestions about what might have caused this, or where to start looking? The only electrical work I've done on the car recently was the installation of a Pertronix and a Flamethrower coil, but that was 2 months ago, and we've driven the car quite a bit since then. Would the starter solenoid going bad cause this? Any and all help greatly appreciated!

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[Tater Salad]

Was the starter turning but wouldn't start? Or the starter wouldn't spin the motor over? If the starter was turning the continued cranking could be why the battery cable got hot. The sudden shut off would make me want to check the coil and the pertronix ignition module. There is a pretty simple bench test for both, however I'm not able to find them at the minute. Have you tried again since the coil has cooled?

 

[Boozeman]

When the car quit, it wouldn't crank at all. After a couple of minutes, we were able to crank the car up and start it again. When it quit the second time, it wouldn't crank at first, but after a couple of minutes it would crank again, but didn't act like it wanted to start. Then on my second attempt, it abruptly stopped cranking and the starter made a "clunk" sound. That's when the positive battery lead got hot and started smoking. I have not tried again since the coil has cooled, since it was arcing when I removed the hot wire from the battery. I'm planning on reinstalling the starter tonight (not looking forward ot this), and I may crank it over and see what happens.

 

[Ward 57]

If it died when driving the starter solenoid would not be involved as it wasn't energized. Could even be an internal short in the battery.

 

[Tater Salad]

When the car quit, it wouldn't crank at all. After a couple of minutes, we were able to crank the car up and start it again. When it quit the second time, it wouldn't crank at first, but after a couple of minutes it would crank again, but didn't act like it wanted to start. Then on my second attempt, it abruptly stopped cranking and the starter made a "clunk" sound. That's when the positive battery lead got hot and started smoking. I have not tried again since the coil has cooled, since it was arcing when I removed the hot wire from the battery. I'm planning on reinstalling the starter tonight (not looking forward ot this), and I may crank it over and see what happens.

I wouldn't completely rule out the starter if it cluncked and wouldn't spin and battery cable smoked. That's basically saying it's sending current through the solenoid. ( I am not aware of a way the starter solenoid would fail and make a dead short.) But that has nothing to do with the car dying. I would check the battery ground to the block and the ground between block and firewall to ensure they are tight and clean.
If they are good, it almost sounds like two problems at the same time.

 

[REDTOY]

Agree with Tater Salad on this one. Check the battery ground to the block, it does get loose and dirty after a while and I've made it a point to check it every year after having a similar issue to yours and it was indeed caused by the ground cable to the block.

 

[jack-in-sac]

This would probably not affect whether the starter would turn the engine over but; One more thing to look at when you installed the Prtronix did you bypass the ballast resistor? When it would not turn over did you try bypassing the solenoid? I suppose the cure may require tracing from the starter backwards to the solenoid then back to the start side of the ignition switch? Good luck, J.

 

[Ward 57]

With the high draw he was experiencing I would rule out anything with the ignition circuit. Dead high current short.

 

[Tater Salad]

With the high draw he was experiencing I would rule out anything with the ignition circuit. Dead high current short.

Starter not spinning but current flowing definitely creates that. However, the car stopping while under power means you can't rule out ignition.

 

[Tater Salad]

Starter not spinning but current flowing definitely creates that. However, the car stopping while under power means you can't rule out ignition.

As another problem. Unless a faulty ground causing the whole issue.

 

[paul5456]

Possible coil going bad. When they heat up, they fail, cooling off they may work until it overheats gain. Do you have a generator or alternator ? Possible problem there, especially if an alternator that has gone bad.

 

[Ward 57]

Hmmm. A bad ground would cause it to just die and loose power. But he said it arched when pulling off the battery cable so something was pulling high power from the battery. The more I think about it, his original diagnosis may be correct. The first connection from the battery is to the starter solenoid. It's a mechanical switch and if something came loose internally and parts fell and shorted, It could have tried to engage the starter hence the clunk. Then the rest of the current flows to the rest of the car. It's a more critical component than we realize. Everything power goes through it first.

 

[Tater Salad]

Hmmm. A bad ground would cause it to just die and loose power. But he said it arched when pulling off the battery cable so something was pulling high power from the battery. The more I think about it, his original diagnosis may be correct. The first connection from the battery is to the starter solenoid. It's a mechanical switch and if something came loose internally and parts fell and shorted, It could have tried to engage the starter hence the clunk. Then the rest of the current flows to the rest of the car. It's a more critical component than we realize. Everything power goes through it first.

What's mechanical about a starter solenoid? It's completely magnetic field? Not saying it's not solenoid. Just asking

 

[Ward 57]

What's mechanical about a starter solenoid? It's completely magnetic field? Not saying it's not solenoid. Just asking

No, there are points and moving mechanicals inside using low current to engage a magnetic field to actuate a switch to direct high current. The very definition of a solenoid. Just like the voltage regulator uses points and mechanicals to direct current. Modern electronics have managed them to remove the mechanical switches.

 

[Tater Salad]

No, there are points and moving mechanicals inside using low current to flip a switch to direct high current. The very definition of a solenoid. Just like the voltage regulator uses points and mechanicals to direct current. Modern electronics have managed them to remove the mechanical switches.

That's correct.. but I don't see or have never seen a starter solenoid fail to be a dead short. The dead short was the starter, which must turn to (use) the current. If it doesn't turn and recieved voltage, it acts as a direct ground or a dead short

 

[Ward 57]

That's correct.. but I don't see or have never seen a starter solenoid fail to be a dead short. The dead short was the starter, which must turn to (use) the current. If it doesn't turn and recieved voltage, it acts as a direct ground or a dead short

Tater, It's not unheard of and that's why they only cost $30 a common replacement item. But he said the whole system was dead other than the warning lights. The low voltage current was there. The battery cable got hot while not trying to start it and he had the starter checked.

 

[Tater Salad]

Tater, It's not unheard of and that's why they only cost $30 a common replacement item. But he said the whole system was dead other than the warning lights. The low voltage current was there. The battery cable got hot while not trying to start it and he had the starter checked.

Spend the 30 bucks to get a starter solenoid. Throwing parts at problems is the way we figure out what's wrong. But im sticking with ive never seen a solenoid fail and cause a dead short. Good luck

 

[thessler]

I would just get basic with this, to me it sounds like a dirty positive connection on the battery. If the positive battery connection was bad and with an old generator if the car went down to a low idle it could crap out and not crank over. A good connection will never smoke. When you disconnected the battery how bad was this arc ? If the key was in the on position or anything was on, lights radio ect. It will arc not alot but the spark will be there. Just some thoughts.
Tom

 

[ak7an]

Spend the 30 bucks to get a starter solenoid. Throwing parts at problems is the way we figure out what's wrong. But im sticking with ive never seen a solenoid fail and cause a dead short. Good luck

When the solenoid is not engaged to activate the starter the secondary post that goes to the starter is grounded. Use an ohm meter and check it out. Something could have broke loose in the solenoid and shorted the whole system to ground, that would also cause the engine to die since that would drop the available voltage down enough to kill the ignition. I would change the solenoid. My .02. Not worth much. LOL
Good luck
Ed

 

[Tater Salad]

When the solenoid is not engaged to activate the starter the secondary post that goes to the starter is grounded. Use an ohm meter and check it out. Something could have broke loose in the solenoid and shorted the whole system to ground, that would also cause the engine to die since that would drop the available voltage down enough to kill the ignition. I would change the solenoid. My .02. Not worth much. LOL
Good luck
Ed

What you're actually seeing is the starter being grounded to the block. If you were to unhook your cable to the starter you'd see that it is open. Attached are just a quick bench test of solenoid to the mounting posts. As you can see it's open. And this is a working solenoid just the old 3 post style.