Sudden 57 Electrical Issue

[Boozeman]

Thank you for the thoughts and replies - much appreciated!
I didn't get the starter reinstalled last night - the family had other plans. Hopefully I'll have time to do that tonight. I'll be sure to check the ground from the battery to the block and the ground from the block to the firewall. I'll also bench test the solenoid (I agree that I've never seen one cause something like this, but I've also never seen something like this). When I installed the Pertronix, I bypassed the ballast resistor, but left a dummy wire attached to it and the coil just for looks. This was one of the first things I checked, and the resistor is indeed insulated from ground, so that's not the culprit. I don't think the coil is going bad, because it's only about two months old. I'm still running a generator, so it's not a faulty alternator. The battery connections are tight and clean... in fact, I have a quick disconnect on the positive side, which was how I was able to get it disconnected so quickly. Thank you again for all the ideas - I'll check out the grounds and the solenoid tonight and report back.

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[ak7an]

What you're actually seeing is the starter being grounded to the block. If you were to unhook your cable to the starter you'd see that it is open. Attached are just a quick bench test of solenoid to the mounting posts. As you can see it's open. And this is a working solenoid just the old 3 post style. View attachment 15947View attachment 15948

My 64 has an updated 4 post solenoid and it is grounded. It is not the old style 3 post, so I stand corrected on the 3 post. just nor sure how the positive wire to the starter is grounded. I guess you would see a very low resistance through the windings of the starter motor. Thanks for that.
Ed

 

[Tater Salad]

My 64 has an updated 4 post solenoid and it is grounded. It is not the old style 3 post, so I stand corrected on the 3 post. just nor sure how the positive wire to the starter is grounded. I guess you would see a very low resistance through the windings of the starter motor. Thanks for that.
Ed

4 post is same. I just used that one because it was the first I came across. Through the starter will actually read almost complete continuity, same as you see checking at the pole on the solenoid. If you were to take off the cable to the starter the pole will read open to ground.

 

[Ward 57]

Well that's why we like this forum. we can always learn something new.

 

[Tbirdr]

I would recheck everything pertaining to the installation of the Pertronix and the Flamethrower coil. Maybe something got loose in the installation.

 

[Ward 57]

I would recheck everything pertaining to the installation of the Pertronix and the Flamethrower coil. Maybe something got loose in the installation.

An ignition issue would not cause a high current draw. I honestly think the solenoid shorted out due to a mechanical failure. After all it IS the main current junction for the high current needed for the starter and low current is down the line. A good systems check is certainly warranted as electronics don't like voltage/current spikes.

 

[Ames]

Good afternoon, all -

Our '57 has been running and driving great - until Saturday. While driving in a neighborhood, the car suddenly quit. Totally shut down, no sputter or anything. It would't crank, although the gen and oil lights were illuminated. After a couple of minutes, we were able to crank the car back up. Made it another block, and the same thing happened. Popped the hood. Then, once it started to crank again, the positive battery wire got really hot and started smoking. I jumped out and yanked it off, and as I did, it made a couple of impressive arcs. Put it on a truck and took it back to the house. Obviously, something is going to ground. I pulled the starter and had it checked out by a shop. Starter's perfectly fine. Any suggestions about what might have caused this, or where to start looking? The only electrical work I've done on the car recently was the installation of a Pertronix and a Flamethrower coil, but that was 2 months ago, and we've driven the car quite a bit since then. Would the starter solenoid going bad cause this? Any and all help greatly appreciated!

Mine had that problem and it was the regulator. The regulator fried when the generator stopped working. I purchased a rebuilt generator and sent the old one in for the core charge, bought a new regulator from the local parts store and was back in business. that was two years ago.

 

[Boozeman]

Mine had that problem and it was the regulator. The regulator fried when the generator stopped working. I purchased a rebuilt generator and sent the old one in for the core charge, bought a new regulator from the local parts store and was back in business. that was two years ago.

Thank you for the information! Is there a way to bench test the regulator?

 

[Ward 57]

I don't think it could be the regulator. It just deals with much lower current. The big clue here as he said it arched pretty heavily so he's dealing with a high current short. I'm still betting on the solenoid. The only place on the car that deals with that much current except the starter it's self and that has been ruled good.

 

[Ward 57]

If you are inquisitive and want to study or at least understand electrical / mechanical devices, the regulator is a great place to start. There is a whole section in the shop manual on how they work and how to adjust. But like you I just replaced the original and tossed it. Now I wish I still had it. They are becoming valuable for 'Perfect' cars.

 

[Tater Salad]

I don't think it could be the regulator. It just deals with much lower current. The big clue here as he said it arched pretty heavily so he's dealing with a high current short. I'm still betting on the solenoid. The only place on the car that deals with that much current except the starter it's self and that has been ruled good.

I didn't mean to state that the regulator would be the problem. I was thinking gen as well and was blindly building off the early comment that the generator fried the regulator. I should have been more detailed in my response. But I was trying to think of a bench test, that may help. And that was if voltage is too low to send the bendix and spin, that could be the clunk. And could also be seen by a lower voltage on the battery. But yet still packs some current flow.

 

[Tater Salad]

I do hope you unhook the solenoid from the starter side and check continuity. But if there's continuity there. You wouldn't need the key.

 

[CSPIDY]

With the positive cable disconnected from the battery, check for shorts to ground with an ohm meter.

 

[Dave H]

I agree with Ward57 as to possible internal battery short. I had something similar happen with my 64 (though without the hot cable and smoke!). It stopped dead while driving it, and the issue turned out to be an internal short in the battery. Have the battery tested.

 

[Boozeman]

Good morning all -

Thank you again for all of your thoughts and ideas. After reinstalling the starter, and a lengthy search with an ohmmeter, I found a crack in the insulation on the cable that connects the solenoid and the starter (rubbing on the firewall). Replaced with an $11 cable from O'Reilly, and got the car successfuly fired back up. The generator and the regulator appear to be working correctly, although the regulator apprars to be overcharging at high rpm's with the lights on (as high as 14.9 volts). I need to read up on it a bit more, but I think I can adjust my regulator to bring the high rpm voltage down a bit.

Thakns again for the help - much appreciated!

 

[Douglemmo]

Hi,
Clearly a failure of the insulation in the wire running from the solenoid to the starter needs to be repaired but, when you are driving, there is no electricity in that wire. Your initial problem was the engine dying while you were driving. Unless I am missing something, I do not think this is the cause of your engine quitting while you were driving.

 

[Boozeman]

You are correct - the grounded cable should not have caused the car to die. I haven't test driven the car yet... Just got the cable replaced this weekend. The weather's supposed to be nice this week, so I'm hoping to get it out and give it a test drive tonight or tomorrow night, and see if it dies unexpectedly again. As it had been stated earlier in this thread, I may well have had two seperate problems come up at the same time. I'll report back after a test drive.

Thanks!

 

[Critterpainer]

Just a note/warning. IF your starter solenoid has been replaced in the last few years with a no-name brand, it can be a source of a DEAD SHORT or ENGINE FIRE!! On some Mustang forums there are reports of the terminals arcing together while starting. In some cases the starter will NOT disengage after the engine starts. Also the ignition terminal can wind up being shorted to positive and bypassing the ignition switch. The only way to shut the engine off when this happens is to pull the coil wire as generator will feed power through the shorted solenoid to the ignition.
I have seen a Mustang that had a devastating engine fire that was obviously caused by a failed starter solenoid.

 

[Boozeman]

Just a note/warning. IF your starter solenoid has been replaced in the last few years with a no-name brand, it can be a source of a DEAD SHORT or ENGINE FIRE!! On some Mustang forums there are reports of the terminals arcing together while starting. In some cases the starter will NOT disengage after the engine starts. Also the ignition terminal can wind up being shorted to positive and bypassing the ignition switch. The only way to shut the engine off when this happens is to pull the coil wire as generator will feed power through the shorted solenoid to the ignition.
I have seen a Mustang that had a devastating engine fire that was obviously caused by a failed starter solenoid.
[/QUOTE

Thanks again to all for all the info. Fired up the car last night and took it for a test drive. Ran great with no problems. Couldn't reproduce the stall, so either I inadvertently fixed what was wrong, or it will happen again when I'm as far from home as possible!

Thanks for the "heads' up" Critterpainter. Fortunately, my solenoid is the original factory part, and seems to be working correctly.

I apprecaite all the knowledge and help from everyone on this forum!

 

[Ward 57]

Did you ever find the root cause? We all would like to know the issue. I have no experience with electronic ignitions but when my resistor started going bad it would have an intermittent connection that would kill the engine or cause it to work enough to get me home.