How does a 64 Convertible top really work? Need it detailed

[FE-Builder]

Hello from Germany from a NewBie..

I found a 64 in a backyard from a Car Dealer..car has a new top, car is in a not that bad shape...but it was stored because it doenst start and the top wont open.

The engine runs now after a few thingssmooth like a bee....jumped it over the starter solenoid.

Problem is now the Conv Top. I bridged the 60A Fuse near the Starter Solenoid. Then i made heavy 12V direkt to the pump..nothing..i opend it...the motor was rotted inside. Itake the Conv Pump from my 66 7Litre Galaxie, changed the Motors and put it in (need to say I opend the Trunklid by muscle and take the 2 cylinders loose so the lid is open to give me acces)

I replaced the Pump, filled it with new Oil (the old looks very fresh..the pump looks like new too but the motor was rotted). than my GF pushed the topswitch. After a few wiggles with the sterring wheel the cylinders from the Trunklid go out.

And now my problems start:

When she pushed the switch to close the motor runs normal for 2 seconds, you see them slightly moving...but then the Motor sounds like it gives full pressure to a closed line. I take the connector from the front (Red / Yello / Light blue Wire) and gave 12V direcktly to stop the sterring wheel wiggle. I can hear some relais, sometime smore sometimes less. The pump doenst take the cylinders back, not over the 3 wire connector not over the direkt 2 wire connector...sounds as said like pressure to a closed line.

How can i find out why?

And second question:

1: When i push the switch the both sides screw motors run permanently. is that normal?

2: When the Trunklid is full open, how does the small lid knows its time to open? Is there a sensor?

3: During the small lid opening / close proceduere is the pump still running?

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[FE-Builder]

Just to show

 

[fordrodsteven]

There is a lot to the system and many adjustments could be required if anyone ever messed with it. You really need to get a manual for the car. That said: I once had a 66 convertible and I'm pretty sure it was very similar. If I remember right my car had the tilt away steering wheel and it had to be tilted to the side for my top to work. The two little gear motors run to release the trunk lid. (I don't remember if they continue to run all the while as the top goes up or down) The hydraulic cylinders raise the lid up. Then the small lid flips up into position. (is the lid flipped up with a hydraulic or electric motor? If hydraulic then yes the pump would keep running) The top moves and folds down into the trunk. The trunk lid comes down and the two screws pull it down to full closed. System works in opposite sequence when going back up. I don't remember sensors. I remember a lot of switches (contact switches and micro switches) My advice is to not change anything if you can help it until you have proven out switches, relays and wiring are good. It is more of an electrical system than a computerized microprocessor like modern cars. It has one action until it hits a stop (switch) then goes to a relay to work to meet the next switching requirement. You can unplug switches and hook up a voltmeter to insure that they are working (switching open / closed) Once you feel good about the switches then I would try to operate it through each step and if it stops in process I would look next to the relays. Without a book that is the best I can offer you at this time. I'm working off memory from a car I had from 1973 through 1975. Good luck. Take your time and think methodically.

 

[FE-Builder]

Hello....thanks for your answer...just to say i am a mecanic, run US Cars since 20 years and i am also elecrican for Wind turbines...and i have a manual for 64 (not the ComvTop manual)...I can find out the ways the circuit takes...itd judt that i cant find answers to my questions above

 

[fordrodsteven]

When she pushed the switch to close the motor runs normal for 2 seconds, you see them slightly moving...but then the Motor sounds like it gives full pressure to a closed line. I take the connector from the front (Red / Yello / Light blue Wire) and gave 12V direcktly to stop the sterring wheel wiggle. I can hear some relais, sometime smore sometimes less. The pump doenst take the cylinders back, not over the 3 wire connector not over the direkt 2 wire connector...sounds as said like pressure to a closed line.

How can i find out why?
I think you need a top manual or you might possibly be able to find something on the internet

And second question:

1: When i push the switch the both sides screw motors run permanently. is that normal?
I think my screw motors ran the whole time the process was going on (top up and top down sequence)

2: When the Trunklid is full open, how does the small lid knows its time to open? Is there a sensor?
I don't recall any sensors (like a pressure switch or proximity switch) I think the lid would flip up and hit a limit switch which would stop tht sequence and move to the next sequence through a relay

3: During the small lid opening / close proceduere is the pump still running?
I would say yes the pump (hydraulics) would be operating through the whole procedure because it moves the top up and down.

 

[FE-Builder]

Thats what i searching for...that´s the main thing for me to understand..how does the small lid knows when to start to open after the Trunklid is full up. IS there a sensor?
And if how does it looks like where is it and how is it wired?

 

[fordrodsteven]

Thats what i searching for...that´s the main thing for me to understand..how does the small lid knows when to start to open after the Trunklid is full up. IS there a sensor?

I am working from mostly 45 year old memories and I'm not 100% certain. I can say that FOMOCO usually tried to be cost effective and would use a perfectly good functioning idea on more than one year. I doubt that there is any kind of proximity sensor. (remember these cars were built before computers became prevalent and transistors were still something new) I would expect you would find a contact switch that would send a signal to a relay to cause the next action in the sequence. That is why there are LOTS of wires! My hunch is that the switch(es) would be on the hinge. Probably one or two at the hinge for the large trunk lid then probably another one or two at hinge for the flap that flips up and down. I would think they act as limit switches. One at each end of travel which would then send (or stop) a signal on a direction of movement (say like raising the large trunk lid). You might have some luck searching for information for other year Thunderbirds. I'm pretty sure 64 through 66 cars would be most likely identical. You might even find information that is helpful from the hardtop convertibles of the late 1950's. I don't know how the tops on 61 to 63 Birds are mounted but they might even use the same system if they have that flip up portion like the 64 to 66. It would be great if someone on the forum who actually has a 64 to 66 convertible could share pictures and information with you. Maybe none of their tops work so they are just watching to see what your solution is (he said facetiously)

I cannot remember specifically but I think I remember a bank (row) of relays in the trunk behind the rear seat and then the wiring harnesses went from there to the switches, lockdown screws and the hydraulic motors.

I might have said it earlier but it seems to me that my car had to be in park with the steering wheel tilted to the side for the power to get back there to operate the top.

And if how does it looks like where is it and how is it wired?

I would think it would be something that is square about 1" (approx. 25 MM) by 1/2" thick with a couple wires coming out of it and a button that protrudes and would click in to either make contact (N.O.) or break contact (N.C.) depending on if it is normally open (N.O.) or normally closed (N.C.) or it could even look like the push botton swith on the door post that makes the interior lights go on when you open the door (That is a N.O. switch)

 

[fordrodsteven]

Also something to remember about the switches. I would think they act as limit switches (but there is probably also a "hard stop". A bolt that you can adjust to limit the travel) . One switch at each end of travel which would then send (or stop) a signal on a direction of movement (say like raising the large trunk lid). If you need to adjust them you would want the switch to be actuated as the mechanism hits the hard stop. You don't want to put too much pressure on the switch because it will break.

 

[FE-Builder]

Hey...thanks..

I got the information on the european Thunderbirdforum in Facebook...

There is an expensive lil thing called Thunderbird Convertible Upper Back Panel Limit Switch

If i got it right it is kind of a switch in combination with a position sensor.

In my understanding it works like this:

1: The Trunklit is erected..The Position Sensor notice and shuts the pump of, also the Solenoid to the trunklit ylinders

2: The same / another Relay that switch the circuit of the Pump and Solenoid gives the circuit to the Back Panel and says "Erect"

3: The Panel is erected and straight to the trunklid, the switch shuts the power from the Panelmotor off

4: The Switch gives the line free for the pump and the solenoids for the rooftop. It opens and goeas in the trunk

5: A switch there shuts by the top frame and close the solenoid from the Rooftop and opens the solenoid from the TrunklidCylinders, also it changes the direction of the pump

6: Trunk close, the screws start in opposite direction...Stopped by the switch in the left side

Is this corecct?

 

[fordrodsteven]

If you join the fordthunderbirdforum.com forum they have a technical resource library that has the wiring diagrams and I was just looking at the wiring diagrams for the 66 convertible.

Is this correct?

I think you are referring to what the diagram calls a limit switch. If you look at the schematic it shows one limit switch, Nine relays, three circuit breakers and three solenoids. There is a lot there that could cause problems on a 50 year old car. I personally would isolate each component (unplug) and then check them individually by an alternate power source and / or a volt meter.

 

[fordrodsteven]

Also use contact cleaner on switches and relays. You might find a little dirt or corrosion at the connection is causing problems. Then when reconnecting the plugs I would apply some dielectric grease to keep them from getting dirty / corroded. Sometimes just unplugging and replugging connections is all it takes.

 

[tbird]

Try this troubleshooting guide

 

[fordrodsteven]

Thank you tbird. That is what I was trying to get him to see. I appreciate your help.