1964 Thunderbird Brake light issues

[Shadrack]

I would say the "smoke show" was most likely because when you hooked up the green-red wire at the lug it was also connected at the solenoid through that hack fuse. Hooking to two power sources on one wire at the same time is not a good thing.
And yes, I would like to see what the hacker did right there where the wires are spliced together. I'm inclined to say just to remove the hack and we'll fix it in a more correct method but don't do that just yet. Let's first figure out what you have going on there.

Hey Steve,

Okay I have created a crude drawing of my engine bay. I also have included a bunch of pictures. I took the wiring looms off today and found that a wire (green/white) was disconnected/cut/broken and paired with the green/red wire and it was hooked up to the boot/cap (this was the one that showed continuity with the green/red wire) the other side of the plug/cap was hooked to the 15 amp fuse. The other side of the 15 amp side fuse is tapped into a wire running (it is also spliced in a few spots) to the starter solenoid and runs into the firewall.

I know this all sounds nuts but I think my problem partially lies with the green/white wire is broken and not connected to the boot - I think it is supposed to be connected to the boot.

You will also see where the loom from the boot/plug & relay plugs into two brown wires that looks like even they are spliced into green and a green/red that goes into the firewall.

Ask as many questions as you need - I need some serious help and I appreciate it.

I can only upload 10 pictures at a time so I will reply to this with the rest:

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[Shadrack]

Hey Steve,

Okay I have created a crude drawing of my engine bay. I also have included a bunch of pictures. I took the wiring looms off today and found that a wire (green/white) was disconnected/cut/broken and paired with the green/red wire and it was hooked up to the boot/cap (this was the one that showed continuity with the green/red wire) the other side of the plug/cap was hooked to the 15 amp fuse. The other side of the 15 amp side fuse is tapped into a wire running (it is also spliced in a few spots) to the starter solenoid and runs into the firewall.

I know this all sounds nuts but I think my problem partially lies with the green/white wire is broken and not connected to the boot - I think it is supposed to be connected to the boot.

You will also see where the loom from the boot/plug & relay plugs into two brown wires that looks like even they are spliced into green and a green/red that goes into the firewall.

Ask as many questions as you need - I need some serious help and I appreciate it.

I can only upload 10 pictures at a time so I will reply to this with the rest:

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More pictures:

 

[Shadrack]

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[Shadrack]

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Last of pictures:

 

[fordrodsteven]

Hey Steve,

Okay I have created a crude drawing of my engine bay. I also have included a bunch of pictures. I took the wiring looms off today and found that a wire (green/white) was disconnected/cut/broken and paired with the green/red wire and it was hooked up to the boot/cap (this was the one that showed continuity with the green/red wire) the other side of the plug/cap was hooked to the 15 amp fuse. The other side of the 15 amp side fuse is tapped into a wire running (it is also spliced in a few spots) to the starter solenoid and runs into the firewall.

I know this all sounds nuts but I think my problem partially lies with the green/white wire is broken and not connected to the boot - I think it is supposed to be connected to the boot.

You will also see where the loom from the boot/plug & relay plugs into two brown wires that looks like even they are spliced into green and a green/red that goes into the firewall.

Ask as many questions as you need - I need some serious help and I appreciate it.

I can only upload 10 pictures at a time so I will reply to this with the rest:

View attachment 3928

Okay, The boot /plug is supposed to have green and green-red to it. I'm going to explain this part of the circuitry first. The green-red is the feed from the fuse box (15A breaker that you're missing) to the brake light switch. The green wire feeds from the brake light switch to the directional switch in the steering column. That is the basic brake light circuit. There's a relay, as you know, but it seems to be okay after the little meltdown so don't worry about that right now.

Now, Looking at the wiring diagrams there are a couple of green-white wires one is to the seat belt warning relay. The other green-white wire goes from the directional switch to the front left directional light. You said the green white was cut / broken and tied into the green-red. I would think it is the seat belt wire because otherwise I don't think your directional would function correctly if it was hooked to the green-red wire.

There are two brown wires in the diagrams. One feeds from the directional switch to the directional flasher (this one would be under the dash so I think we are seeing the other one in the engine compartment). The other brown feeds to the ignition resistance wire (pink) and red-green to the coil from the starter solenoid.

I need to really study your pictures so I can try to figure out what they did. You'll have to give me a little time.

 

[fordrodsteven]

Don, Now that you have torn open a bit of harness covering can you see how the wires (color code to color code) are supposed to be hooked up if none of the hacking had happened?
I guess my question really is do you think you could remove the hack from the harness to then try to sort out the harness by itself as a properly designed circuit? Don't do it. I just want to know if it is visibly somewhat obvious where the hack is incorporated?

 

[Shadrack]

Hey Steve,

Thank you for looking at this. First I will say - if I can sort out the pictures in a way that helps more, please let me know. I don't know anything about electrical but I can see this is weird!

Looking at all of it, soaking it what you have told/taught me, I think that I would start by taking the splice out of the harness totally. The wire that runs from the solenoid to the splice would be left, but I would take out the fuse - I might put a fuse in the line just to be careful though.

Then I would take the black wire that is hacking into the boot and run it to the green/white wire/splice it in like it should be. Then I would install one of the circuit breakers I bought, run a constant to it, and run the eyelet end to the other side of the breaker. This should trip the breaker if I were wrong and not burn the car down lol.

That green/white wire is actually part of my harness for the stop light switch all together - I think that it is supposed to be a green /red wire and a red/white wire to the connector - along with the red wire, then at the other side of the connector it is the two brown wires and it switches over to solid green from green/white and the other side continues the green/red to the fuse panel area where I would hook up the eyelet to the circuit breaker.

Does this make sense? Lookt that the picture of the wires near my stop light relay - you will see a green/white, a green/red, and a red wire - also a ground wire that runs to the back of the washer bag. I also included a stock photo from macs for the harness and the relay.

 

[Shadrack]

Don, Now that you have torn open a bit of harness covering can you see how the wires (color code to color code) are supposed to be hooked up if none of the hacking had happened?
I guess my question really is do you think you could remove the hack from the harness to then try to sort out the harness by itself as a properly designed circuit? Don't do it. I just want to know if it is visibly somewhat obvious where the hack is incorporated?

Don, Now that you have torn open a bit of harness covering can you see how the wires (color code to color code) are supposed to be hooked up if none of the hacking had happened?
I guess my question really is do you think you could remove the hack from the harness to then try to sort out the harness by itself as a properly designed circuit? Don't do it. I just want to know if it is visibly somewhat obvious where the hack is incorporated?

I read my reply to your post and it did not make much sense, sorry about that, so I redid it below.

Hey Steve,

Thank you for looking at this. First I will say - if I can sort out the pictures in a way that helps more, please let me know. I don't know anything about electrical but I can see this is weird!

Looking at all of it, soaking it what you have told/taught me, I think that I would start by taking the splice out of the harness totally. The wire that runs from the solenoid to the splice would be left, but I would take out the splice ad make it whole again with a butt connector - I might put a fuse in this line just to be careful though – an inline fuse which would also get rid of the splice.

Then I would take the black wire that is hacked into the boot/plug and run it to the green/white wire that is broken and put a butt connector in – make it whole like it should be. Then I would install one of the circuit breakers I bought, run a constant power source to one side of it, and run the eyelet end to the other side of the breaker. This should trip the breaker if I were wrong/ something still bad in the circuit and not burn the car down lol.

That green/white wire is actually part of my harness for the stop light switch all together - I think that it is supposed to be a green/white wire, a green/red wire, and a red wire to the connector (relay harness is grounded behind the washer reservoir per the pictures) - the two brown wires and it switches over to solid green from green/white and the other side continues the green/red to the fuse panel area where I would hook up the eyelet to the circuit breaker.

Does this make sense? Look at that the picture of the wires near my stop light relay - you will see a green/white, a green/red, and a red wire - also a ground wire that runs to the back of the washer bag. I also included a stock photo from macs for the harness and the relay. (in post #89 now)

THANKS SO MUCH!

Don

 

[Shadrack]

Not sure if my avatar shows it yet - but I am also not being a bum guys - I just became a gold member. As time goes along I will try and further upgrade - you all have been so wonderful!

 

[fordrodsteven]

I read my reply to your post and it did not make much sense, sorry about that, so I redid it below.

Hey Steve,

Thank you for looking at this. First I will say - if I can sort out the pictures in a way that helps more, please let me know. I don't know anything about electrical but I can see this is weird!

Looking at all of it, soaking it what you have told/taught me, I think that I would start by taking the splice out of the harness totally. The wire that runs from the solenoid to the splice would be left, but I would take out the splice ad make it whole again with a butt connector - I might put a fuse in this line just to be careful though – an inline fuse which would also get rid of the splice.

Then I would take the black wire that is hacked into the boot/plug and run it to the green/white wire that is broken and put a butt connector in – make it whole like it should be. Then I would install one of the circuit breakers I bought, run a constant power source to one side of it, and run the eyelet end to the other side of the breaker. This should trip the breaker if I were wrong/ something still bad in the circuit and not burn the car down lol.

That green/white wire is actually part of my harness for the stop light switch all together - I think that it is supposed to be a green/white wire, a green/red wire, and a red wire to the connector (relay harness is grounded behind the washer reservoir per the pictures) - the two brown wires and it switches over to solid green from green/white and the other side continues the green/red to the fuse panel area where I would hook up the eyelet to the circuit breaker.

Does this make sense? Look at that the picture of the wires near my stop light relay - you will see a green/white, a green/red, and a red wire - also a ground wire that runs to the back of the washer bag. I also included a stock photo from macs for the harness and the relay. (in post #89 now)

THANKS SO MUCH!

Don

Okay Don, Yes, You are looking at it logically and sensibly. This might get pretty confusing as we go along so just be patient and proceed logically, safely and cautiously. You don't want to destroy things that you might not be able to replace or spend money to replace things that did work and are now destroyed because of doing something wrong.

I agree that putting the harness back to original configuration is a good idea. Why do you say the wire from the solenoid to the harness would be left? Is it part of the original wiring harnesses in the car? Is it something added for the hack? Would the wire from the solenoid be connected to anything at the other end? If it looks like it was added for the hack I would just remove it completely. If you find it was powering something else you can always put it back in for whatever else it was powering. What is this inline fuse your talking about putting in. What circuit are you trying to protect?

Using that black hack wire to complete that connection to the green-white wire should be perfectly fine. If you're talking about putting the new circuit breaker in by the fuse box and using it as in the original concept.... I agree. Yes, constant power from Black-yellow would copy the original layout. Then as you say hook the lug (green-red) to the other side. BUT. a word of caution here! I would not yet hook up the green-red wire at the new breaker (power source) until after proving out all the circuitry! This should be the last connection you make to try and see if all this works properly.
Once you have things wired as it should don't put power to any of it yet! You first need to use the multimeter and test light to check that wiring will be proper. First thing to check is continuity from the fuse box lug (green-red) to the boot/plug at the brake light switch. Then check that the brake light switch functions as it should. (closing connection when pressure applied to the brake pedal). After these two things are done and proved out you can continue checking / tracing circuits. I will help you through this but first check the green-red wire and the brake light switch.

 

[Shadrack]

Okay Don, Yes, You are looking at it logically and sensibly. This might get pretty confusing as we go along so just be patient and proceed logically, safely and cautiously. You don't want to destroy things that you might not be able to replace or spend money to replace things that did work and are now destroyed because of doing something wrong.

I agree that putting the harness back to original configuration is a good idea. Why do you say the wire from the solenoid to the harness would be left? Is it part of the original wiring harnesses in the car? Is it something added for the hack? Would the wire from the solenoid be connected to anything at the other end? If it looks like it was added for the hack I would just remove it completely. If you find it was powering something else you can always put it back in for whatever else it was powering. What is this inline fuse your talking about putting in. What circuit are you trying to protect?

Using that black hack wire to complete that connection to the green-white wire should be perfectly fine. If you're talking about putting the new circuit breaker in by the fuse box and using it as in the original concept.... I agree. Yes, constant power from Black-yellow would copy the original layout. Then as you say hook the lug (green-red) to the other side. BUT. a word of caution here! I would not yet hook up the green-red wire at the new breaker (power source) until after proving out all the circuitry! This should be the last connection you make to try and see if all this works properly.
Once you have things wired as it should don't put power to any of it yet! You first need to use the multimeter and test light to check that wiring will be proper. First thing to check is continuity from the fuse box lug (green-red) to the boot/plug at the brake light switch. Then check that the brake light switch functions as it should. (closing connection when pressure applied to the brake pedal). After these two things are done and proved out you can continue checking / tracing circuits. I will help you through this but first check the green-red wire and the brake light switch.

Thank you Steve!

So, I think that wire to the solenoid was ran after the fact. It does go into the firewall but it looks like it might be part of the ignition hack. So I thought maybe it would be best to unsplic/reconnect it and leave it for now.

I just went out and checked continuity through the green/red wire - good to go.

I just checked the brake light switch again, it is working.

So now that it all seems to be tracing correctly, what do you suggest checking now?

Steve, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you and everyone else.

 

[fordrodsteven]

Thank you Steve!

So, I think that wire to the solenoid was ran after the fact. It does go into the firewall but it looks like it might be part of the ignition hack. So I thought maybe it would be best to unsplic/reconnect it and leave it for now.

I just went out and checked continuity through the green/red wire - good to go.

I just checked the brake light switch again, it is working.

So now that it all seems to be tracing correctly, what do you suggest checking now?

Steve, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you and everyone else.

You may be right. That hack to the solenoid is probably something to do with that push button starter circuit. That's fine, I would leave it alone for now and just break out the brake light circuit from the splice / hack.
Okay, At least one more check I would like you to do. This might require some contortion. This may or may not work due to the brake light relay (out by the windshield wash bottle) in the circuit but I'm hoping it works. Can you find the connector under the dash that feeds into the steering column? Would like to check continuity from the other pin on the brake switch boot / plug to the green wire up under the dash at that connector. You might be able to "back pin" it without taking the connector apart if you have something small enough to to slide into the back side of that pin. Other things you can check at that connector is the function of the directional switch. Is there one connector with 10 to 14 wires on it or is it separate connectors feeding into the steering column for the directional circuits?

 

[Shadrack]

You may be right. That hack to the solenoid is probably something to do with that push button starter circuit. That's fine, I would leave it alone for now and just break out the brake light circuit from the splice / hack.
Okay, At least one more check I would like you to do. This might require some contortion. This may or may not work due to the brake light relay (out by the windshield wash bottle) in the circuit but I'm hoping it works. Can you find the connector under the dash that feeds into the steering column? Would like to check continuity from the other pin on the brake switch boot / plug to the green wire up under the dash at that connector. You might be able to "back pin" it without taking the connector apart if you have something small enough to to slide into the back side of that pin. Other things you can check at that connector is the function of the directional switch. Is there one connector with 10 to 14 wires on it or is it separate connectors feeding into the steering column for the directional circuits?

I will get under there and give it a go! I will report back might be a couple of days with mom, but I will try and do it today.

How hard is it to replace that directional switch? Could the issue be in it? I have turn signals working.

Also, let me throw this out there. What if my smoke shows the other day happened with that splice disconnected? It keeps nagging at me that it may have been disconnected. What would cause that you think?

 

[fordrodsteven]

I will get under there and give it a go! I will report back might be a couple of days with mom, but I will try and do it today.

How hard is it to replace that directional switch? Could the issue be in it? I have turn signals working.

Also, let me throw this out there. What if my smoke shows the other day happened with that splice disconnected? It keeps nagging at me that it may have been disconnected. What would cause that you think?

If your turn signals were / are working the directional switch is most likely okay. I don't think you will have to replace the directional. I just don't know how the turn signals were getting power with that hacked system. Is there any hacking you can see under the dash at the connectors feeding into the directional switch at the steering column?

As for the smoke show I distinctly remember that you still had it hooked up through the splice. The smoke came because you were putting power to that wiring from two different places at the same time. When you put it back the way it was without powering the green-red wire from the fuse box end ,everything started working again. Not to worry at this time. I'm feeling pretty safe in the assumption that you pulled it apart quickly enough so that nothing was permanently damaged.
I'm thinking you are on the right track by pulling the brake light system out of the hack and installing a circuit breaker back near the fuse box to power the brake light circuit as original designed.

 

[Shadrack]

If your turn signals were / are working the directional switch is most likely okay. I don't think you will have to replace the directional. I just don't know how the turn signals were getting power with that hacked system. Is there any hacking you can see under the dash at the connectors feeding into the directional switch at the steering column?

As for the smoke show I distinctly remember that you still had it hooked up through the splice. The smoke came because you were putting power to that wiring from two different places at the same time. When you put it back the way it was without powering the green-red wire from the fuse box end ,everything started working again. Not to worry at this time. I'm feeling pretty safe in the assumption that you pulled it apart quickly enough so that nothing was permanently damaged.
I'm thinking you are on the right track by pulling the brake light system out of the hack and installing a circuit breaker back near the fuse box to power the brake light circuit as original designed.

You guys should have seen my face when that smoke show happened, I felt my eyes pop outta my head and I might have yelped like a little girl. I should have taken a picture of my hand - That will be a lesson that will stick with me forever!

I will get out there and get it all put back to as factory as I can. Part of me wants to order a new relay and the entire harness, but the wires seem okay - I will run a continuity test on them - and the part is over 100 bucks.

How can you check continuity on a wire halfway through without cutting it, is there a way? I am just curious.

 

[fordrodsteven]

If your turn signals were / are working the directional switch is most likely okay. I don't think you will have to replace the directional. I just don't know how the turn signals were getting power with that hacked system. Is there any hacking you can see under the dash at the connectors feeding into the directional switch at the steering column?

As for the smoke show I distinctly remember that you still had it hooked up through the splice. The smoke came because you were putting power to that wiring from two different places at the same time. When you put it back the way it was without powering the green-red wire from the fuse box end ,everything started working again. Not to worry at this time. I'm feeling pretty safe in the assumption that you pulled it apart quickly enough so that nothing was permanently damaged.
I'm thinking you are on the right track by pulling the brake light system out of the hack and installing a circuit breaker back near the fuse box to power the brake light circuit as original designed.

I figured the directional switch out. The power for the directional comes out of the flasher and into the switch. The brake lights also come through the directional but are really not tied to the flasher circuit. The directional switch, when actuated, leaves the brake signal through to one side while switching to the flasher for the other side. Your directional switch is working fine as it should. I feel pretty good that this is almost all sorted.
Just look under the dash near the connections that feed up into the directional switch to insure the wiring has not been bastardized. If it looks good I'm pretty confident in hooking the green-red at the circuit breaker, plug in the brake light switch and see if it works! If you want a little added insurance you could put a small (10A or less) in-line fuse between the green-red lug and the new 15A circuit breaker. Once you prove out that it works fine you can remove that in-line fuse and hook directly to the circuit breaker.

 

[fordrodsteven]

You guys should have seen my face when that smoke show happened, I felt my eyes pop outta my head and I might have yelped like a little girl. I should have taken a picture of my hand - That will be a lesson that will stick with me forever!

I will get out there and get it all put back to as factory as I can. Part of me wants to order a new relay and the entire harness, but the wires seem okay - I will run a continuity test on them - and the part is over 100 bucks.

How can you check continuity on a wire halfway through without cutting it, is there a way? I am just curious.

I would pass on replacing that relay / wiring just yet. It seems to be working.

I use a small pointy tool (like an ice pick or one of those little tools you can get buy in the pack of four) and poke through the wire casing to contact the wire inside. I alligator clip my multimeter lead to the ice pick tool. All it leaves is a very tny hole in the wire rubber casing.

 

[Dj-Dan]

There wasn't a sequencer in 64. I believe that came out in 65 of 66. I see you guys found the fuse box. That is cool that everyone is helping. In turn I'm learning new stuff. Thank you.

 

[Dj-Dan]

Interesting steve - I wonder if it is supposed to go on one of those screw posts as it has an eyelet. I have zero power at the actual boot that goes over the switch, the two-prong boot. Mac's parts said to bridge the boot inside and my brake lights would come on - no dice. I am so close I can smell it now - you guys have been great! I am just worried that the circuit is not getting power. I got zero reading as far as volts goes in the boot. So, with that said - I wonder if I should supply 12v to the unhooked green/red wire and see if I get anything?

Thanks again, EVERYONE!

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! I wouldn't be putting power to a lone wire until you are positive where it is going. You don't want to damage something else..Don't panic when it comes to electric tracing. ..You'll get it..

 

[Shadrack]

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! I wouldn't be putting power to a lone wire until you are positive where it is going. You don't want to damage something else..Don't panic when it comes to electric tracing. ..You'll get it..

That you Dan! I learned my lesson quickly lol.