1957 only starts with jump box

[chrisbeebacon]

So I put a new battery in it that fits and it has 520 cranking amps. It will only start with a jump box. Any idea why? Is 520 cranking amps not enough to turn the engine over.

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[Shawnski]

520 cranking amps should be enough. I’d check and make sure the cables are in good condition and making solid contact with zero corrosion. Especially the ground.
It could also be the starter motor itself.

 

[chrisbeebacon]

520 cranking amps should be enough. I’d check and make sure the cables are in good condition and making solid contact with zero corrosion. Especially the ground.
It could also be the starter motor itself.

So after checking the grounds everything seems to be fine. I am getting clicking in the solenoid like the battery is dead but it's not. I'm getting power to the solenoid and when I turn the switch I get power out the other side but it's not enough to turn the starter.

 

[4VE]

Take some emery cloth and clean the lugs that contact all of the terminals on the solenoid. Clean the battery post lugs on the inside and the posts as well as the cable that connects to the post lugs and the negative terminal lug where in contacts the frame and the sufrace below it. When doing that, use some Ox-Guard, Anti-oxidant compound on all contact surfaces. Garder Bender makes it and you can get it at Home Depot. That covers the top side. Below, do the same where any terminal lugs and studs are attached to the starter. If the thing starts with a booster box, I suspect you will find the problem is near that battery.

 

[sre]

Good advice from previous posters. If the cables are original especially the cable from the solonoid to the starter, I would change it. If the cable is bad(green) inside by starter it then may require additional Amps. to start. If the starter is original or quite old it may also require more Amps to turn over.

 

[doug7740]

So after checking the grounds everything seems to be fine. I am getting clicking in the solenoid like the battery is dead but it's not. I'm getting power to the solenoid and when I turn the switch I get power out the other side but it's not enough to turn the starter.

The starter solenoid is externally grounded and the solenoid mounting surface must be clean and tight for it to operate at peak efficiency. Also, the Thunderbird engine is mounted on rubber mounts. As a result, it’s necessary to install a ground wire from the engine to the firewall. This ground wire provides a ground path for the electrical components that are mounted on the firewall. Without the proper grounding connection it is possible that some electrical components will not operate at peak efficiency, especially on 1957 models.

doug7740
1955 Thunderbird Blue

 

[sre]

The solonoid is bad, needs to be replaced.

 

[4VE]

There is an old trick. Solenoids often "went bad". If you understand the way they work, when you hit the key, power goes to the small wire on it which moves a magnet with a copper ring. The ring contacts two surfaces to allow current to flow between the two large terminals, completing the circuit to the starter. If you cross these two large terminal ends by "jumping" (using two screw drivers, the handles of a pliers or a heavy piece of copper cable), you skip actuating the copper ring. This will verify if the solenoid failed. They fail for many reasons. The high voltage passing during initial contact causes arcing across the contact surfaces of both the ring and the terminal and just like with the points, pitting occurs. Another failure is the coil, the small windings can short causing it to loose the ability to fully hold the ring in contact with the lugs. These conditions will cause the ring to flutter and that is what you are hearing. The clicking sound is the ring oscillating during momentary engagement. You can also remove the starter, secure it very well on a bench or it will take off under power. Then using the car battery and jumper cables, connect both sides of the battery to the cables to the battery. Make certain that the other end of the cables are clamped to a piece of wood or other non conductor to prevent a short. Now connect one cable to the terminal on the starter and the other cable to the flange of the starter to complete the circuit. This bench test should be done whenever you replace the brushes to make sure they are seated against the armature. As long as you have the starter out, you may as well replace the brushes as well. It can be tricky with the springs so be cautious and pay attention to how they come out of the starter. Clean and re grease the tail bearings and check the drive end bearings to assure that they spin freely. If you were in the Tampa area, I could help you out and you would be on your way shortly.

 

[dmsfrr]

In addition to the Starter Solenoid needing a good Ground connection to work correctly double check the Two ground cables for the battery & starter.
More electrical connections equals more places for potential failures.
On an original '57 setup the battery Ground cable does not go to the engine like the 55's and 56's do, it connects to the firewall right behind the battery with an often neglected connection there.
The Ground cable for the engine and starter connects from the engine to the firewall behind the intake manifold, similar to the '55 & '56. Photo 1.

BUT, in a '57 it's also the ground cable for the starter and Must be the same larger gauge wire as a main battery cable, and have clean connections all around.
Most engine to firewall Ground cables on 57's are much too small in wire gauge, photo 2. They will overheat and should be replaced with a correct larger gauge wire.
A better idea is to replace the short Negative battery cable on a '57 with a new longer version that attaches directly to the engine.

 

[Pink T-Bird]

BUT, in a '57 it's also the ground cable for the starter

Where do the two ends of this starter ground cable connect? I don't have one, and I don't see one in the CASCO catalog. The only cables they show for '57 is the solenoid to starter, battery to firewall and battery to solenoid.
I have a 'lazy' starter when cold, and sometimes need to put a booser on to get it started. Works fine when the car is warmed up. I suspect an electrical issue and have replaced the three cables I know about and cleaned the connections while doing so. My next step was going to be to replace the starter.

 

[Shawnski]

When it’s cold and won’t crank over, crawl under it and tap on the starter with a hammer and try to start it again. It’s got to be a connection issue from corrosion.

 

[Pink T-Bird]

When it’s cold and won’t crank over, crawl under it and tap on the starter with a hammer and try to start it again. It’s got to be a connection issue from corrosion.

Sorry I was not clear. The way I learned the terminology working in a auto shop, a lazy starter turns slowly, but it does always crank. Just sometimes it is just a bit too slow to get the engine to start. Once the battery is confirmed good, It is always an electrical resistance problem. After all the external connections are eliminated as the source of the high resistance the only thing left is an internal resistance problem in the starter. Although from my auto mechanic days it was usually internal resistance in the starter on hot restart, not cold start.
That's why I was ready to replace the starter as the only source of variable resistance left until @dmsfrr mention the additional ground cable that my car does not have.

 

[Tom Alpers]

Sorry I was not clear. The way I learned the terminology working in a auto shop, a lazy starter turns slowly, but it does always crank. Just sometimes it is just a bit too slow to get the engine to start. Once the battery is confirmed good, It is always an electrical resistance problem. After all the external connections are eliminated as the source of the high resistance the only thing left is an internal resistance problem in the starter. Although from my auto mechanic days it was usually internal resistance in the starter on hot restart, not cold start.
That's why I was ready to replace the starter as the only source of variable resistance left until @dmsfrr mention the additional ground cable that my car does not have.

TO my knowledge there is no ground cable for the starter, it grounds to the engine/bell housing. There is a ground cable from the battery to the firewall. Then another separate ground cable that goes from the firewall to the engine. Then there is the positive cable from the battery to the solenoid. Then another positive cable from the solenoid to the starter. I'm sure ford had some reason for that setup, probably make assembling the car easier but it seems like a better way would be to use a heavy cable from the battery negative straight to the engine, then another cable from the engine to the firewall. Might even be a good idea to add another cable between the firewall and the frame.

 

[4VE]

At this point, I think Shawnski is onto something. In the old days, It was common to hammer on the starter case to get the brushes to contact the armature surface. a grain of sand can disrupt the current flow. The starter brushes and armature/commutator can have issues due to dirt, oil, debris.... There can be a "dead spot" also which can cause an intermittent issue. You can do a "freshen up" on the starter but watch carefully when disassembling, wash the tail bearing needles in the rear in laq. thinner and repack. Check the main bearing for feel. This is probably your issue. What little, dirty grease that is in it is probably stiff when cold. Press on a new one anyway as long as you are this deep. Watch the springs in the brush cage so they don't shoot you in the eye or take off for places unknown. Use a fine steel wool to clean the armature surfaces of any crud. If there is pitting, get a new starter. Before you even start, do what I told you earlier by bench testing it. Then there is the issue of the bendix. It is a mechanical gear shifter that rides on a spiral spline under spring pressure. When the motor spins up, it "kicks" the gear into the flywheel teeth. Check the flywheel to make sure it is not damaged. I am not sure if it is replaceable in this case, they mostly are. They get dirty and wont' engage or remain engaged into the teeth of the flywheel. They need to be internally clean and free of lubricant. That is one moving part that relies on having NO lubrication. Some I have known drill two small holes in the body at 180 degrees and soak it in laq thinner to rinse out the grime. Keep up the journey. Post results.

 

[Brax]

So I put a new battery in it that fits and it has 520 cranking amps. It will only start with a jump box. Any idea why? Is 520 cranking amps not enough to turn the engine over.

It starts with a jump box and keeps running after you remove the jump box. The first thing to try a different battery as I have a feeling your new battery isn’t fully charged.

 

[Ward 57]

Sorry I was not clear. The way I learned the terminology working in a auto shop, a lazy starter turns slowly, but it does always crank. Just sometimes it is just a bit too slow to get the engine to start. Once the battery is confirmed good, It is always an electrical resistance problem. After all the external connections are eliminated as the source of the high resistance the only thing left is an internal resistance problem in the starter. Although from my auto mechanic days it was usually internal resistance in the starter on hot restart, not cold start.
That's why I was ready to replace the starter as the only source of variable resistance left until @dmsfrr mention the additional ground cable that my car does not have.

Could be just worn brushes. A minor rebuild may be in order, I learned a long time ago especially on old cars " repair don't replace".

 

[SHA BOP]

So I put a new battery in it that fits and it has 520 cranking amps. It will only start with a jump box. Any idea why? Is 520 cranking amps not enough to turn the engine over.

I have a 55 bird all original still 6 volt. I use an Optima 6V batt with 800 cold cranking amps and I installed a hidden electric in-line small fuel pump for cold starts. It works every time with a short fuel prime. No more long cranking cycles for manual fuel pump to get fuel to the carb