Overheating 390 | Ford Thunderbird forum club group 1955-2005 models
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Overheating 390

  • Thread starter Thread starter Cam
  • Start date Start date
Cam
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3
Thunderbird Year
1963
New to the HAMB. Have a 1963 T-Bird with an engine that only overheats on highway. Done/verified the following:
1-No apparent coolant leaks.
2-No heating issue at idle.
3-Heat sender seems to be operating fine.
4-Thermostat opens and pump is circulating the coolant.
5-Checked for head gasket leaks using block tester no combustion gases detected.
6-Radiator in good shape.
7- Radiator fan has excellent air movement.
8- No sign that water is getting in the oil.
9- Radiator hoses and belts recently installed.
10- All cylinders have 120 lbs pressure
Any ideas as to what to do or where to look are appreciated.
Thanks

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New to the HAMB. Have a 1963 T-Bird with an engine that only overheats on highway. Done/verified the following:
1-No apparent coolant leaks.
2-No heating issue at idle.
3-Heat sender seems to be operating fine.
4-Thermostat opens and pump is circulating the coolant.
5-Checked for head gasket leaks using block tester no combustion gases detected.
6-Radiator in good shape.
7- Radiator fan has excellent air movement.
8- No sign that water is getting in the oil.
9- Radiator hoses and belts recently installed.
10- All cylinders have 120 lbs pressure
Any ideas as to what to do or where to look are appreciated.
Thanks

I have read that in older engines sometimes the cast water ports in the engine block can begin to close up from mineral deposits accrued over a long time, thereby reducing the engine's ability to cool itself under high stress circumstances.
 
If the cooling system is clogged or there is scale in there, drain the complete system including the heater core. Go to a Hardware Store and buy a gallon of Muriatic Acid pour it in the cooling system and had water to bring it up to the operating level and start the engine and let come up to temperature. Shut the engine off and let it sit for a few hours then drain the system again. If there is scale in the system you will see it in the water you just drained. Flush the system completely again and add coolant. Royal Purple makes a product called Purple Ice which breaks down the viscosity of the water and helps to keep the water temperature down.
You could take out the radiator and have it taken apart and have the tubes brushed cleaned. You might also want to get an infrared gun and check the temperature of the water coming out of the thermostat housing into the radiator and check the temperature coming out of the radiator into the water pump. There should be at least a 20 degree difference if not it is time to check the radiator. Good luck Rick
 
I have read that in older engines sometimes the cast water ports in the engine block can begin to close up from mineral deposits accrued over a long time, thereby reducing the engine's ability to cool itself under high stress circumstances.

Thank you for your input. Rick suggested a way to clear the water ports. This is about the only thing I haven't tried.
 
If the cooling system is clogged or there is scale in there, drain the complete system including the heater core. Go to a Hardware Store and buy a gallon of Muriatic Acid pour it in the cooling system and had water to bring it up to the operating level and start the engine and let come up to temperature. Shut the engine off and let it sit for a few hours then drain the system again. If there is scale in the system you will see it in the water you just drained. Flush the system completely again and add coolant. Royal Purple makes a product called Purple Ice which breaks down the viscosity of the water and helps to keep the water temperature down.
You could take out the radiator and have it taken apart and have the tubes brushed cleaned. You might also want to get an infrared gun and check the temperature of the water coming out of the thermostat housing into the radiator and check the temperature coming out of the radiator into the water pump. There should be at least a 20 degree difference if not it is time to check the radiator. Good luck Rick


Rick

Thank you for the input. Although muratic acid sounds a bit drastic I will give it a try because as you can see from my list I have tried everything that worked in my past projects. Do you know how many lbs. the rediator cap should be rasted at? There is nothing that I can find in the shop manual. The present cap is rated at 13 lbs.

Thanks
Cam
 
Rick

Thank you for the input. Although muratic acid sounds a bit drastic I will give it a try because as you can see from my list I have tried everything that worked in my past projects. Do you know how many lbs. the rediator cap should be rasted at? There is nothing that I can find in the shop manual. The present cap is rated at 13 lbs.

Thanks
Cam
If it was brand new 16 lbs is good but because it is an older car don't go higher then 13 lbs. Muriatic acid is not that strong I use it to clean the heat exchangers on my boat it does a great job breaking up the salt.
 
New to the HAMB. Have a 1963 T-Bird with an engine that only overheats on highway. Done/verified the following:
1-No apparent coolant leaks.
2-No heating issue at idle.
3-Heat sender seems to be operating fine.
4-Thermostat opens and pump is circulating the coolant.
5-Checked for head gasket leaks using block tester no combustion gases detected.
6-Radiator in good shape.
7- Radiator fan has excellent air movement.
8- No sign that water is getting in the oil.
9- Radiator hoses and belts recently installed.
10- All cylinders have 120 lbs pressure
Any ideas as to what to do or where to look are appreciated.
Thanks
Here are some more things to check:
1. Remove a core plug and poke into the water jackets. Heavy rust/mineral deposits block heat transfer and may require removal of all core plugs with mechanical cleanout or even entire block soaking. Blocked jacket flow will cause local hot spots and risk a blown engine.
2. hydraulic clutch on fan is usually worn out. But you usually don't need or benefit from a fan at highway speed. Do you still have a shroud?
3. 120 pounds is quite marginal. It suggests that vacuum might be inadequate, that vacuum advance does not work, and that engine has too much ignition advance at highway speed, causing overheating and even possible detonation. The engine may be worn out and too difficult to ever get tuned. Nearly all of these old FOMOCOs using points have a worn out distributor that causes erratic ignition timing and a rough idle. My trusty Ford dealer tried to sell me an also worn out distributor that he claimed was "rebuilt." Push the cam back and forth and note that the points open and close even when the shaft is not turning. It is well worth it to install an electronic ignition kit that fits inside the old distributor. But this might not fix overheating. With 120 pounds compression, you might be able to limp along for another 5000 miles which might be enough for a collector car. But it might be too much hassle.
4. Older muscle cars use carburetor jetting set up for old high octane gasoline. On today's gasoline they will often run too lean, contributing to overheating. The answer may be to install a larger main jet.
5. It is difficult to know the flow rate of an old radiator, but it is usually blocked. It is easier and cheaper to simply buy a new radiator. Rock Auto has great prices, maybe under $50. Local radiator shops are competitive and often deliver. Depending on price, convert to a higher capacity radiator, such as five or six core.
6. American made thermostats will break if you cough too hard when the hood is open. When I put them into a test pot of boiling water, most are defective. Your new thermostat may have broken the first time your old engine overheated. If you can find a Toyota or Mercedes OEM thermostat the right size, it is much more reliable. Try your local dealer but be sure he sells OEM and not aftermarket junk. I believe the little hole is essential and should never be blocked.
7. Check for loose belt(s). Maybe purchase a belt tension gauge and tighten to specs.
8. Check that there is clean air flow into radiator, through it, and also exiting the engine compartment. There should be no changes to the thoughtful factory design. At highway speeds the fan does nothing and it is all about maximum air flow pushed through by vehicle movement.
9. Old heat sensors are unlikely to be reliable/ accurate. Install a gauge with a tee fitting to use both. Harbor Freight is good enough.
10. If all else fails, consider converting to racing coolant that boils at about 300. It also has better heat transfer, is less likely to cavitate, and never needs changing. First update all cooling parts, radiator, heater hoses, water pump, thermostat, etc. Special flush and then run the racing coolant straight. Enthusiasts will often update from an old two or three core radiator to a five core radiator which usually helps.
 
New to the HAMB. Have a 1963 T-Bird with an engine that only overheats on highway. Done/verified the following:
1-No apparent coolant leaks.
2-No heating issue at idle.
3-Heat sender seems to be operating fine.
4-Thermostat opens and pump is circulating the coolant.
5-Checked for head gasket leaks using block tester no combustion gases detected.
6-Radiator in good shape.
7- Radiator fan has excellent air movement.
8- No sign that water is getting in the oil.
9- Radiator hoses and belts recently installed.
10- All cylinders have 120 lbs pressure
Any ideas as to what to do or where to look are appreciated.
Thanks


Even though you installed new water hoses, go back and check the lower hose and insure that it has the spring in it to keep it from collapsing. That is the suction hose and at highway speeds can collapse and strave the engine of water and overheat. This is a very common problem. Reach down with your hand and squeeze the hose and if it collapses easily then that is your problem.
 
Well I have done most of the items suggested including the Muratic acid. The water now comes out clear. The engine has 84,000 miles with a new distributor and electronic ignition upgrade. The timing is set to specs and now I'm looking for a lower hose with the coil in it and an OEM thermostat.

When that is complete I will take for a highway cruise and see what happens. Thankfully my Haggerty road assistance is paid up.
 
Generally speaking, if you only overheat at speed, it is a radiator problem, not an airflow problem. Conversely, if you only overheat in traffic or sitting still, it is an airflow problem.

How did you verify your radiator is in good condition? Have a good radiator shop do a flow test.
 
I did not verify with flow test. I relied on the condition. Visually it looks like new, The coolant was clear and it drained fast. Not very scientific. If when I test drive it the temp gauge moves off normal it will go to the radiator shop.

Thanks
 
The best way to check the condition of the radiator without taking it out of the car is to get a infrared temperature gun and check the temperature of the coolant coming out of the thermostat housing and coming out of the bottom of the radiator there should be at least a 20 degree difference. If not the radiator needs work, the radiator is not transferring the heat out of the coolant. Good Luck Rick.
 
The best way to check the condition of the radiator without taking it out of the car is to get a infrared temperature gun and check the temperature of the coolant coming out of the thermostat housing and coming out of the bottom of the radiator there should be at least a 20 degree difference. If not the radiator needs work, the radiator is not transferring the heat out of the coolant. Good Luck Rick.
The problem with that is it will not necessarily show flow restrictions. It will show blockages, but if the overall flow is reduced due to internal buildup, it may not show that.

The only way to determine if the radiator flows properly is for a radiator shop to do a flow test on it. If you have no overheating at idle and around town, and only overheat on the road at speed, it is usually a radiator flow issue.
 
If you have flow restrictions you will not have any heat transfer so then the coolant temperature will not come down. Yes the flow is important but to much flow is not good either, the coolant doesn't stay in the radiator long enough to disperse the heat. That is why a thermostat is so important to reduce the flow to let the coolant to cool down.
 
If you have flow restrictions you will not have any heat transfer so then the coolant temperature will not come down. Yes the flow is important but to much flow is not good either, the coolant doesn't stay in the radiator long enough to disperse the heat. That is why a thermostat is so important to reduce the flow to let the coolant to cool down.
This is one of those myths that simply will not die. There is no such thing as too much flow. In fact, all else being equal, the only way to reduce operating temperatures in any liquid cooled system (not just automotive cooling systems) is to increase flow or increase the size of the heat transfer device (ie - radiator). Think of it this way: when you burn your finger, do you put it under a trickle of water so that each drop of water has a chance to catch more heat, or do you run it under a lot of water so the water is constantly removing heat?

Why do you think they sell high-flow water pumps? Sometimes they're called high efficiency water pumps - but all that is different is the impeller design so that it will flow more water.

The sole purpose of a thermostat is to raise engine temperatures quickly and get the engine to its optimum operating temperature for efficiency - not to reduce flow. This is why there are high flow thermostats - so that the thermostat won't reduce flow too much
 
Hi Ernie, I think you are on the right track but I differ with you. First the fact of having more flow is good but to much flow is bad it doesn't give the radiator enough time to transfer the heat out of the coolant. When a high flow radiator is advertised what they are selling is a radiator that has 4 to 5 cores versus the 2 cores in stock radiators. Not only do they add more cores but they also reduce the size of the tubes to make it easier to reduce the temperature in the coolant. Think of it this way when you have a bowl of hot soup do you blow on the whole bowl or on a spoonful. It is easier for the temperature to be reduced in the spoon then the whole bowl. The same principle is in play with the radiator. With smaller tubes and more of them you now have slowed the coolant down in the radiator and give it more time to cool off.
The high flow water pump is an important part of the system what it does is move coolant faster thru the system at a slower engine speed. The thermostat does play a multi role in the coolant system, not only does it allow the engine to come up to temperature quickly but it also slows the coolant down when the engine gets to cool. It actually closes down a bit to allow the coolant to come up to the temperature while in the engine. A simple way to test this is to put a thermostat in a pot of water on a stove and bring it up to temperature to where the thermostat opens then pour some cold water in the pot and the thermostat closes slowly then opens again when the temperature comes back up. This is how the thermostat works in the engine. If you run an engine without a thermostat it takes for ever to come up to temperature but once it gets there the coolant doesn't spend enough time in the radiator to cool enough and eventually the engine starts running hot and over heats.
We can debate this forever with no satisfaction. Go and find a radiator shop who has been in business for 45 or 50 years and talk to the old timers there and ask them how the cooling system should work. I am sure they can explain it better then I can. I have been building Hot Rods for over 45 years and have gone thru my share of over heating problems and cures. I hope we can put this subject to bed now. Good luck Rick
 
Hi Ernie, I think you are on the right track but I differ with you. First the fact of having more flow is good but to much flow is bad it doesn't give the radiator enough time to transfer the heat out of the coolant.
But using this logic, that water moves too quickly to transfer heat, then it would move too quickly to absorb heat from the engine. This is a myth and does not follow the basic laws of thermodynamics.

When a high flow radiator is advertised what they are selling is a radiator that has 4 to 5 cores versus the 2 cores in stock radiators. Not only do they add more cores but they also reduce the size of the tubes to make it easier to reduce the temperature in the coolant.
That is not always true. The trend these days is to larger tubes within the core...to increase flow.

Think of it this way when you have a bowl of hot soup do you blow on the whole bowl or on a spoonful. It is easier for the temperature to be reduced in the spoon then the whole bowl. The same principle is in play with the radiator. With smaller tubes and more of them you now have slowed the coolant down in the radiator and give it more time to cool off.
The reason you blow on the spoon is because you have more flow against a smaller size. If you could blow the same relative volume across the bowl, you could cool it at the same rate. Nobody puts smaller diameter tubes in a radiator, they put more of them in either the same size, or larger. A 4-core radiator is thicker front to back than a 2-core radiator. The number of rows is dependent on the size of the header tanks. You generally cannot change the tanks, so you are limited to the number of rows. The way around this in modern radiator design is to increase the actual size of the tubes for more flow.

The high flow water pump is an important part of the system what it does is move coolant faster thru the system at a slower engine speed.
No, it move more coolant. The only way to move the coolant faster is to put a smaller pulley on the water pump. The design of the impeller has less 'slippage' to increase the volume, or flow.

The thermostat does play a multi role in the coolant system, not only does it allow the engine to come up to temperature quickly but it also slows the coolant down when the engine gets to cool.
The sole purpose of the thermostat is to raise the engine temperature quickly and then keep it there. It closes to regulate temperature. It does this by slowing, or stopping flow once it cools. You can actually understand my point by realizing that if it gets too cool, it will slow or stop flow. Therefore, the reverse is true, it tries to eliminate itself as a restriction to flow when the coolant gets too hot.

If you run an engine without a thermostat it takes for ever to come up to temperature but once it gets there the coolant doesn't spend enough time in the radiator to cool enough and eventually the engine starts running hot and over heats.
Only your first statement is true; it does take a long time for the engine to get up to temperature. However, the temperature will reach a stabilization point that equals the maximum cooling capacity for the radiator for a given airflow. I recently dealt with this on one of my vehicles when my t-stat stuck, so I removed it on the side of the road. I drove it without a T-stat and it ran at about 155-165* blasting down the highway, and no more than 175* in stop-and-go traffic in summertime FL. Once I put the T-stat back in, I regulated at 185* - pretty darn close to my 180* T-stat and I could watch my T-stat open and close on my temperature gauge.

We can debate this forever with no satisfaction.
I'm satisified based on physics, thermodynamics, and practical experience. There are a few myths within the automotive world that are simply persistent - this is one of them - but it is not supported by real-world science.

Go and find a radiator shop who has been in business for 45 or 50 years and talk to the old timers there and ask them how the cooling system should work. I am sure they can explain it better then I can.
My best friend's family has owned and operated just such a shop for over 55 years. They agree with me and it's where I learned all of this stuff in the first place. I've actually rebuilt and repaired radiators myself, so I'm not just pulling this stuff out of my rear end. The most efficient design is a cross-flow multi-pass system - I can cool 800HP with a 2-row core if I can push it through the entire radiator twice....but maximum flow is the key!

I have been building Hot Rods for over 45 years and have gone thru my share of over heating problems and cures. I hope we can put this subject to bed now. Good luck Rick
I hope so too.
 

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