1964 Thunderbird with possible engine trouble

[Shadrack]

Hello All,
I have been absent lately due to going and staying with my uncle in the sticks, I am working with a satellite internet connection and it is not great - hope this gets posted. I am having a VERY hard time after caring for my mother for 3 years and dealing with her death - had to get out of town.

Here goes,
The first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one. As many of you know, especially @fordrodsteven and @64ZCODE - I bought my 64 on eBay, sight unseen. Brilliant, but hey, you live once. I got it here, it was running, but nothing really worked. You guys have helped me GREATLY with fixing all the wiring issues - it is amazing the car has not burnt to the ground.

Let's get to it - I think my car has engine problems. When I got it, I noticed that it was smoking grayish smoke pretty badly. When you would start it the car was so rich that it left black skid marks of carbon on the ground. I took the carb off, went to rebuild it, and found that it had several holes in it plugged with an epoxy...I gave up and bought a new one. I have yet to install it as I have been working on the electronics so I can pass inspection. I am hoping the smoke goes away with a new carb and all the fixes I am doing...but something is nagging at me.

The plugs were black and smelled like pure gas. I replaced the fuel pump thinking it might be leaking into the oil. I changed the oil...it was black and chunky with sludge. The coolant was green from what I could see, then I drained it was not so green, it was nasty brown.

With the grayish blueish smoke, chunky oil, coolant that was brown...could I have an engine problem? I checked for blow by when it ran and did really feel anything at all. I just bought a compression tester at the local dry goods store here where my uncle lives and will test when I am back home the compression on each cylinder.

I am just starting to wonder if I should have it towed over to the inspection office and get a "restoration transfer," where it's in my name but not street legal. Or maybe even get a salvage title which would allow me to fully transfer it without inspection....but it would be marked salvage for all its days - it has already been marked as mileage exempt because the previous owner stated on the title mileage unknown.

I don't have a ton of space to work with but I am thinking after the compression test - I'll report back numbers - that maybe I should pull the intake and heads and see what I am dealing with. Take the heads to the machine shop let them do the valve job and all that maybe - even go to an Edelbrock intake as well. I can see that the intake has been off before, there is gasket material sticking out and RTV on the front. I also noticed that some of the bolts on the manifold are shiny...like they have been off.

I even bought -
How To Rebuild BIG-BLOCK FORD ENGINES by Stee Christ. Not even sure I could rebuild one, I think I could...I would just go back with factory everything as this is not a hotrod.

Sorry this post is all over the place - just trying to get all the information in one spot.

 

[57tbird57]

Hello All,
I have been absent lately due to going and staying with my uncle in the sticks, I am working with a satellite internet connection and it is not great - hope this gets posted. I am having a VERY hard time after caring for my mother for 3 years and dealing with her death - had to get out of town.

Here goes,
The first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one. As many of you know, especially @fordrodsteven and @64ZCODE - I bought my 64 on eBay, sight unseen. Brilliant, but hey, you live once. I got it here, it was running, but nothing really worked. You guys have helped me GREATLY with fixing all the wiring issues - it is amazing the car has not burnt to the ground.

Let's get to it - I think my car has engine problems. When I got it, I noticed that it was smoking grayish smoke pretty badly. When you would start it the car was so rich that it left black skid marks of carbon on the ground. I took the carb off, went to rebuild it, and found that it had several holes in it plugged with an epoxy...I gave up and bought a new one. I have yet to install it as I have been working on the electronics so I can pass inspection. I am hoping the smoke goes away with a new carb and all the fixes I am doing...but something is nagging at me.

The plugs were black and smelled like pure gas. I replaced the fuel pump thinking it might be leaking into the oil. I changed the oil...it was black and chunky with sludge. The coolant was green from what I could see, then I drained it was not so green, it was nasty brown.

With the grayish blueish smoke, chunky oil, coolant that was brown...could I have an engine problem? I checked for blow by when it ran and did really feel anything at all. I just bought a compression tester at the local dry goods store here where my uncle lives and will test when I am back home the compression on each cylinder.

I am just starting to wonder if I should have it towed over to the inspection office and get a "restoration transfer," where it's in my name but not street legal. Or maybe even get a salvage title which would allow me to fully transfer it without inspection....but it would be marked salvage for all its days - it has already been marked as mileage exempt because the previous owner stated on the title mileage unknown.

I don't have a ton of space to work with but I am thinking after the compression test - I'll report back numbers - that maybe I should pull the intake and heads and see what I am dealing with. Take the heads to the machine shop let them do the valve job and all that maybe - even go to an Edelbrock intake as well. I can see that the intake has been off before, there is gasket material sticking out and RTV on the front. I also noticed that some of the bolts on the manifold are shiny...like they have been off.

I even bought -
How To Rebuild BIG-BLOCK FORD ENGINES by Stee Christ. Not even sure I could rebuild one, I think I could...I would just go back with factory everything as this is not a hotrod.

Sorry this post is all over the place - just trying to get all the information in one spot.

cooling system needs flushed for sure. drain antifreeze , put 2 bottles of prestone cooling system flush in and top off with water. run for a couple of hours or drive it a couple of days, then drain and flush until water runs clear out of radiator drain plug. as far as the carbon out of the tail pipe and black spark plugs, 3 possible things to check are vacuum leaks, carb running rich and distributor vacuum advance. possibly a combination of all 3. it was for me on a 65. once corrected she ran like new. also timing can affect performance

 

[1963bulletbird4ever]

Wow do not throw in the towel as of yet brother! So I can tell you I experienced similar things with the smoke and carbon on the ground. My main issue was the carb. I actually saw the carb dumping fuel in the engine when it was off. The carb was so rich it cased the smoke or fouled plugs as well. I swamped out with Edelbrock 1406 and that issue disappeared.

The FE motors are pretty tuff from what I understand. I have had two that were very neglected BUT came back from the grave. I would do the flush as 57tbird57 mentioned as I also had brown junk in the radiator. I would replace all vacuum lines, new plugs/do tune up, clean radiator, change oil a few times and run some sea foam or marvel trough it and clean it up. It sounds like it just sat around for a while and now needs some real time care. I also ran a can of "restore" in it as I have in other "FE motors" and it did wonders. I am a believer

I just would not give up, as mentioned before this is the way you "Bond" with your car. Hope it all works out and post your finding and remember to take your time and don't rush.

 

[Grahamp]

Just a few more thoughts. Certainly rebuild or replace the Ford carburetor which has an economy valve in it that is not reliable and when blown will make the engine run rich, just rebuilt my carb for this reason. Your incomplete combustion problem can also be caused by an engine timing issue but more likely caused by pitted or out of adjustment points, a vacuum advance issue, a cracked or corroded distributor head and worn out ignition wires to the plugs and a tired ignition coil. All easy and inexpensive to fix. But I would strongly advise installing Pertronix electronic ignition which fits in the existing distributor and replaces the points, far superior starting, idling and running. About $100 and well worth it. Replace the coil, distributor head, ignition wires to get the very best out of the Pertronix system. I would also drop the oil pan and clean out any sludge and clean the oil pump screen, if you have seen sludge in the oil , there will be a load of it in the pan. have fun

 

[Shadrack]

Thank you all for your help! When I got the car there were a bunch of parts in the trunk. It was like someone was trying to do a resto and just stopped.

The wires look very new - I have not tested them yet though, but look almost new. The carb was a mess, and I have a replacement for it - it is just waiting for me to finish the wiring corrections. The car came with a timing light so I suspect that someone has been messing with it. I don't know much about timing but isn't initial timing at degrees on these cars?
Not sure, never timed a car before. Also, it looks like the intake has been off before, recently-ish - it has RTV in the front that looks newer - also the timing light tells me the distributor was probably out of course with the intake.
When I got the car it didn't idle the best, but not the worst.
It had a petronix in the trunk with the spare parts(treasure!) - I installed it - it ran smoother but still belted out the smoke. The oil smelled like fuel and thre plugs smelled like fuel and were black - hence the fuel pump replacement. I do have a new petronix coil to install.

I wanted to also ask about the oil pan. I have not had an oil pain off a car before. Is it difficult on these cars? I am still hat my uncle's house and have not been home to look. If it is not hard to drop the pan, like having to take the engine out, then I am all for it. Would it be better to just replace the oil pump?

Oh, I wanted to ask - the vacuum advance, should it be hooked to straight manifold vacuum or should it be on the timed vacuum port on the carb?

 

[64ZCODE]

Hey there Don. I'd do a compression test before ploughing more time and money into fixes that may not be needed. If compression is OK (mainly no more than 20% variation between the eight cylinders), then I betcha your carb is toast. You could mess with rebuilding it but you'll be much happier if you buy a new Holley or Edelbrock.

Timing needs to be correct but if incorrect would not cause the black smoke and running rich symptoms you're describing.

Vacuum to the vacuum advance can be from ported or manifold vacuum sources. My '64 runs better with the latter. There are arguments both ways but the proof is how the car runs, so you can flip back and forth and experiment with it.

Doug

 

[Shadrack]

Hey Guys,

Petronix is hooked up, new coil, new wires, new plugs, new Edelbrock 1406, new coolant, running three fuel filters - new water pump.

So I changed the oil and put a can of engine restore in it. The idle smoke went away pretty much after running for a bit. I get grayish. maybe bluish smoke now when I goose the throttle hard. It comes out pretty good lol. Still think I need to have it tuned in a bit more - or what sort of engine problems do you think I could have?

Thanks guys!

 

[64ZCODE]

Hey Don. Grey or white smoke is running too rich or possibly water getting into the combustion chamber, blue smoke may be oil. How's she do under acceleration? Have someone follow you and see. Check for smoke when starting up, under hard acceleration, and when using engine compression to slow down.

Have you set the idle mix screws on the new carb? With a Holley, and I would assume also with an Edelbrock, setting the idle screws to obtain the highest manifold vacuum is the best way to do it.

Doug

 

[Shadrack]

Hey Don. Grey or white smoke is running too rich or possibly water getting into the combustion chamber, blue smoke may be oil. How's she do under acceleration? Have someone follow you and see. Check for smoke when starting up, under hard acceleration, and when using engine compression to slow down.

Have you set the idle mix screws on the new carb? With a Holley, and I would assume also with an Edelbrock, setting the idle screws to obtain the highest manifold vacuum is the best way to do it.

Doug

Hey Doug!

Gonna say it looks like bluish gray - I know that doesn't help lol. At an idle, it used to smoke before I added restore and put the new carb on. However, if I rev it up, give it the beans several times - it blows out smoke (smells like unburnt gas I think). I will probably get a vacuum gauge and get on it (hate to screw it up since it idles and runs so well otherwise) - I might take it to my local guy who works on older hot rods and see if he can help me with a tune-up.


(unrelated - but I bought an 04 expedition to replace my 210,000 mile 04 tahoe - drove up and got it...came back, front diff blew in it. I am having to sink 3000 in it now...I guess it will be brand new up front though - CV axles and wheel bearing being done as well since he is already in there)