1964 Thunderbird Brake light issues

[Shadrack]

Okay Folks - getting close to passing this inspection...

I replaced the Brake Light Relay - and my taillights came to life - wonderful! Turn signals still work well. However, my brake lights will not work! Jeez. So I checked the brake light switch. It is in place - however, it looks like another hack job. I tried to bridge the two contacts in the connector per advice from Mac's parts - no brake lights.

As you can see the connector plug for the switch has been spiced into a wire loom that eventually goes into a green and green/red wire. Before that, they go through yellow wires, up to what looks like a green, yellow and red wire loom - pictured. Then two wires shoot over and are spliced into a loom on the driver's side fender top, which goes into a fuse that is held by two spade connectors - so it is kinda a mess.

If you recall my car has a starter button and it seems that the bypassed the neutral safety switch.

So, here is my question. Where the heck do I start to get some brake lights? I am assuming this mess worked at one point, the fuse is still good, but there is zero power going to it with headlights on or even the car 0n. I really hope you all can help me with this. I am really confused.


The green wire and the green/red wire here look suspiciously like the ones that the pigtail boot is spliced into...

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[Dj-Dan]

Hello Nemesis, Do you have a multi-meter? I'll look up your brake light schematic for a 64 Thunderbird.

 

[Shadrack]

Hello Nemesis, Do you have a multi-meter? I'll look up your brake light schematic for a 64 Thunderbird.

Yes I do, any help is most appreciated, not sure where to go on this one. 🙁

 

[Dj-Dan]

Step one: fuse box are you getting electric across 15 amp small fuse?
Step two: Green-red stripe comes out of fuse box to brake switch connected to brake master cylinder. Any power there?
Step three: the other terminal off of brake switch wire color green wire. This green wire goes to a plug or connection under the dash.
Step 4: coming off the connection or plug, the wire changes back to Green-Red Stripe. That green-red wire is going into the turn signal switch in steering column.
Step 5: coming off the turn signal switch it goes into two circuits. One for the left side rear tail lights and of course the the Right.
If you still gave power up to this point then we can go to step 6.
Everything past the turn signal switch.
Step 6: left side wire color is green-orange stripe. Right side color wire is orange-blue stripe. One connector or plug larger then plug before turn signal are under the dash. This connection plug will have the two wires from turn signal going in and the same two color wires going out. All under dash.

Note: easy way for me was to un-bolt driver seat and take out. Spray the crap out of bolts w-d40 or liquid wrench. With the seat out, you will have more room to maneuver around.
Step 7: These two wires will connect into a three/three connector plug. Not sure from the diaphragm if it is in the trunk which I would assume. It is going to a three/three connection because you are picking up the black ground wire for the tail lights to work. I would do a seperate continuity check on the black wire to ground. Sometimes the ground wire at either end (fuse box)to this connector plug could be broken or full of crusty. Left side tail light green-orange and right tail light orange-blue and now the black wire.
Step 8: trunk for sure area the two circuits split off left side green-orange goes by itself to a two plug connector and the right side orange-blue goes with the black wire to a two plug connector. There will be a pig tail black wire with your original black wire that grounds to the licence plate light and then jumps over to the left tail light.

If all this ohms out then your tail lamp sockets might need to be cleaned up or replaced....

Now I have to rest, my eyes hurt from squinting on this small schematic print..Good Luck Nemesis

 

[64ZCODE]

Hey Dan, thanks for mapping out the troubleshooting steps. I’m saving it to a file I keep of useful information I hope I never need but probably will🙂

Doug

 

[Dj-Dan]

No problem, I just hope Ford didn't change something. I am so used to technical stuff getting revised. Hopefully they didn't change anything during the 1964 build.

 

[Dj-Dan]

No problem, I just hope Ford didn't change something. I am so used to technical stuff getting revised. Hopefully they didn't change anything during the 1964 build.

 

[64ZCODE]

What, and mess with perfection?

 

[Shadrack]

Step one: fuse box are you getting electric across 15 amp small fuse?
Step two: Green-red stripe comes out of fuse box to brake switch connected to brake master cylinder. Any power there?
Step three: the other terminal off of brake switch wire color green wire. This green wire goes to a plug or connection under the dash.
Step 4: coming off the connection or plug, the wire changes back to Green-Red Stripe. That green-red wire is going into the turn signal switch in steering column.
Step 5: coming off the turn signal switch it goes into two circuits. One for the left side rear tail lights and of course the the Right.
If you still gave power up to this point then we can go to step 6.
Everything past the turn signal switch.
Step 6: left side wire color is green-orange stripe. Right side color wire is orange-blue stripe. One connector or plug larger then plug before turn signal are under the dash. This connection plug will have the two wires from turn signal going in and the same two color wires going out. All under dash.

Note: easy way for me was to un-bolt driver seat and take out. Spray the crap out of bolts w-d40 or liquid wrench. With the seat out, you will have more room to maneuver around.
Step 7: These two wires will connect into a three/three connector plug. Not sure from the diaphragm if it is in the trunk which I would assume. It is going to a three/three connection because you are picking up the black ground wire for the tail lights to work. I would do a seperate continuity check on the black wire to ground. Sometimes the ground wire at either end (fuse box)to this connector plug could be broken or full of crusty. Left side tail light green-orange and right tail light orange-blue and now the black wire.
Step 8: trunk for sure area the two circuits split off left side green-orange goes by itself to a two plug connector and the right side orange-blue goes with the black wire to a two plug connector. There will be a pig tail black wire with your original black wire that grounds to the licence plate light and then jumps over to the left tail light.

If all this ohms out then your tail lamp sockets might need to be cleaned up or replaced....

Now I have to rest, my eyes hurt from squinting on this small schematic print..Good Luck Nemesis

This is excellent information!!! wow!! I am just worried as mine seems spliced in with that weird fuse that I need to trace somewhere else. Where they installed a starter button and sort of bypassed the ignition switch along with the neutral safety switch - would this affect brake light operation?

Also, taking a look at the attached picture you see a taped off green wire and a green/red wire unhooked at my fuse box - does this relate to the brakes lights? I looking for a copy of the electrical manual as well - want one badly - need to get the inspection done - so thank you all for helping me so much!


See the two wires in the fuse box - wondering if they are related?

 

[Shadrack]

Also, calling out to all the 1964 guys - would one of your post a good picture of your fuse box so I have a reference - not finding much on Google.

 

[64ZCODE]

You’re going to hate this, but where is the fuse box located?

 

[fordrodsteven]

Nemesis.... DJ Dan is steering you in the right direction! The only thing that may be a problem is if the previous person who did all that wiring work changed a circuit somehow. Just keep working with what DJ Dan has outlined until you run into something that doesn't work.
I'm pretty sure from looking at the diagrams that it is a pretty normal brake light circuit through the directional. I would think if you have power going into the directional switch when you come out of the brake light switch that the problem could be the directional switch. The brake light signal goes into the directional and the directional switch controls the power going out to brake lights and switches through the flasher for directional.
Also I wouldn't think any wiring changes to put in that starter button should NOT have any affect on the brake lights. If they by-passed your Neutral Safety Switch it would / could affect back up lights but not brake lights.

 

[fordrodsteven]

You’re going to hate this, but where is the fuse box located?

I'm pretty sure, from Nemesis' earlier pictures, that the fuse box is on the right hand side (passenger side) behind the kick panel. It probably has a cover that can be pulled off to get at the fuses. I think Nemesis is wanting a picture of the fuse box with the whole kick panel removed so that he can see wires to/from the fuse box.

 

[64ZCODE]

Thanks Steven, I'll send a pic. Doug

 

[fordrodsteven]

Also, taking a look at the attached picture you see a taped off green wire and a green/red wire unhooked at my fuse box - does this relate to the brakes lights? I looking for a copy of the electrical manual as well - want one badly - need to get the inspection done - so thank you all for helping me so much!


See the two wires in the fuse box - wondering if they are related?


View attachment 3875

I looked at the picture then looked at a wiring diagram. According to what I see on the diagram (at the fuse box) The green wire probably goes to the seat belt warning circuit. The green - red wire goes to the brake light switch. I must say though that it worries me that your directional work but your brake lights don't.

 

[Shadrack]

You’re going to hate this, but where is the fuse box located?

No worries at all! It is as Steve said, the passenger side kick panel, there is a little removable door - if I could get a look at one that has not been hacked up like mine it would help so much! Thanks doug!

 

[Shadrack]

I looked at the picture then looked at a wiring diagram. According to what I see on the diagram (at the fuse box) The green wire probably goes to the seat belt warning circuit. The green - red wire goes to the brake light switch.

Interesting steve - I wonder if it is supposed to go on one of those screw posts as it has an eyelet. I have zero power at the actual boot that goes over the switch, the two-prong boot. Mac's parts said to bridge the boot inside and my brake lights would come on - no dice. I am so close I can smell it now - you guys have been great! I am just worried that the circuit is not getting power. I got zero reading as far as volts goes in the boot. So, with that said - I wonder if I should supply 12v to the unhooked green/red wire and see if I get anything?

Thanks again, EVERYONE!

 

[Shadrack]

Nemesis.... DJ Dan is steering you in the right direction! The only thing that may be a problem is if the previous person who did all that wiring work changed a circuit somehow. Just keep working with what DJ Dan has outlined until you run into something that doesn't work.
I'm pretty sure from looking at the diagrams that it is a pretty normal brake light circuit through the directional. I would think if you have power going into the directional switch when you come out of the brake light switch that the problem could be the directional switch. The brake light signal goes into the directional and the directional switch controls the power going out to brake lights and switches through the flasher for directional.
Also I wouldn't think any wiring changes to put in that starter button should NOT have any affect on the brake lights. If they by-passed your Neutral Safety Switch it would / could affect back up lights but not brake lights.

Also wanted to ask - what is the directional switch and where is it located - is this the switch for the turn signal? At this point I am not getting any power at the boot that covers the switch. Mac's said that if I bridge the two prongs inside the boot that it would light up my brake lights - no dice.

I really appreciate your guys - when this thing is transferred you will need to send me the name of your vice, be drink, food, or beanie babies - and I will send you all a nice one. Bringing this car back to life is helping me through my mother's slow decent into....passing over.

 

[fordrodsteven]

Also wanted to ask - what is the directional switch and where is it located - is this the switch for the turn signal? At this point I am not getting any power at the boot that covers the switch. Mac's said that if I bridge the two prongs inside the boot that it would light up my brake lights - no dice.

I really appreciate your guys - when this thing is transferred you will need to send me the name of your vice, be drink, food, or beanie babies - and I will send you all a nice one. Bringing this car back to life is helping me through my mother's slow decent into....passing over.

I don't see any sequencer in the circuits in the diagrams. SO.... that's good news. It means it's not nearly as complicated as later year Thunderbirds with the sequentially blinking directional. The directional switch is in the steering column. If you have brake lights then the power would feed through the directional switch to make one side blink while the other side has brake lights. Like I said earlier. I'm concerned that you said the directional worked and you didn't have brake lights. Whomever messed with the wiring may have jumped power to the directional but not through the brake light switch. Go back to the troubleshooting process outlined by DJ Dan. Figure out what you have first. I would be a little leery of just hooking up that green red wire until I have a better idea of what is done to the wiring. One thing you can do is check continuity from that spade lug at the fuse box to the plug at the brake light switch. That way you can verify the wire goes where I think it goes and not melt or fry anything by hooking up power.

 

[64ZCODE]

Here you go: