1957 Electrical Issue- Car Completely Dead | Ford Thunderbird forum club group 1955-2005 models

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1957 Electrical Issue- Car Completely Dead

  • Thread starter Thread starter TJShea
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TJShea

TJShea

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Hello, once again an electrical stumper has me in its grips. Battery issues are difficult enough, now I have a complete electrical failure. Here is what happened. I have a 2 year old Die Hard Group 29NF. I keep it on a battery tender. I went to start the car for a weekly car show, so it is being driven. The interior light lit when I opened the door. Turned on the ignition, used the electric fuel; pump to prime the carb, as I always do. Turned the pump off, Turned the key to start, made a short start to crank noise with the starter, “click” then dead. Everything is dead. No lights, nothing. Yet the battery tender, I tried two of them, shows the battery fully charged. All connections are good, tight and clean, I tried a portable jumper, nothing. I cannot get jumper cables from another vehicle to the car where it sits.

I believe the battery may be shot, and there is a surface charge that “tricks” the battery tender into believing the battery is charged. Could this be it? Or could there be some master fuse or something along that line that could have gone out and rendered my entire system dead?

Getting a replacement battery is not that easy. The last place I ordered the current Die Hard is going out of business (Advance Auto Parts). NAPA will need to order one at least 1 week out, the same with Interstate. Just curious if there could be another culprit besides the battery that would render everything dead? While I was waiting for one I ordered, I thought I’d seek some more opinions. Hopefully, it is just a bad battery......again Thanks in advance.

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You need to look where the ground connects to the block. Possibly loose or corroded.
 
Do you have a cut off knob on the battery negative, If you do then see if the knob rotated in the off position. This happened to me. This caused a brian scratcher .....
 

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Put a multimeter across the battery terminals, should read a nominal 12.8V or thereabouts, then have somebody crank the car, normally the voltage should drop to the 9v range, if not you have corrosion or a loose connection somewhere.

If the cranking voltage dives below that you may have a dead cell or other internal battery issue, EVEN if it appears to read normally without a load.. Many places (Batteries & Bulbs) can load test your battery and eliminate that as an issue.

I replaced all of my knob cut-offs with the knife blade switch on my classics....
 
Thank you all for the info and suggestions. These forums are great. Given what was here I tried a few things. I used a simple circuit tester. One with a negative clip and a positive needle and an integrated light. It lit up on the battery with the needle on the positive and the clip on the neg. Worked when i kept the positive on the terminal and and the negative where the negative battery cable ground on the firewall. Putting the needle on the positive connection at the solenoid and the negative on the battery...nothing. Whacked on the solenoid a few times, which was suggested, and the indicator lit up with the positive on the solenoid. I tried the ignition..heard the solenoid "click" and dead. Whacked on the solenoid a few times. Tried the ignition... click...everything dead. Whacked on the solenoid. Turned on the headlights....they worked. The interior light came on when I opened the door. Touched the key...click..everything dead. Whack whack whack again, headlights came on. Bought a battery tester (another suggestion) It showed the battery at 30% but good. It had been on a battery tender which should fully charged. A second battery tender showed the same. I am going to o replace the battery cables, and the solenoid and see what happens. Hopefully that does it. I was able to order an Interstate group 29 NF, it arrived yesterday at the dealer. If the new solenoid and cables do not solve the issue, hopefully, adding a new battery will do the trick. If those do not work, then perhaps it could be the ignition switch? I am amazed that the solenoid seemed to short out the system perhaps and nothing worked. Whatever happened inside when I whacked it with a wrench seemed to open the circuit, but it shorted (I guess) when I tried to either the start or "accessory" on the ignition. I think it must be the solenoid because whacking on it restores the current to the lights, etc. I'll let you all know...and thanks again.
 
If, as a posed earlier, the battery (which reads marginal anyway) is weak or with a bad cell a sudden current draw could yield in non-functional enough to cut all power IMO. So you may find your replacement parts fix the problem - let us know.
 
TJSHEA, I worked on these cars when I was a young guy and they were new. Sometimes we would use a screwdriver to short across the "relay: contacts from the middle post to the starter post and if the car started it was the "relay" bad but if not I would pull the starter and check it directly with a battery jump cart or directly from the battery to see if it worked. Many times those old starters and generators would wear the bushings out and when they finally gave up the ghost usually as the car was shut off or upon initially trying to restart it. they ar at the point where the armature was shorted to the field and causing a direct to ground short. And then everything was "dead." I now have a "63 Prince of Monaco edition that a very good friend gave to me about 9 years ago but several serious health issues have prevented me from having her on the road.


Now, has anyone out there ever tried to stuff a 70's model R70W trans into a "61 to "63 with a 390 FE motor and if so what was the process?
 
TSHEA, that should have said "starter relay" it is a 3 connection black round box usually on the passenger's side fender wall in the engine bay. Also, someone mentioned in their post that the ground lead (positive terminal) should be connected to somewhere on the block and I think you mentioned that yours was on the firewall. As far a I remember in those days the ground lead was almost always attached to the engine block or directly to the frame and not to some area of sheet metal because even then the "engineers" knew that sheet metal and mother nature would find a way to interrupt the connection to each piece but that the frame and engine would be the last places to rust enough to hinder the flow of electrons/electricity form positive to negative or vice versa. Anyway. that's just my 2 cents worth. Good luck. in the words of KOJAK (for those of you old enough to remember who that is CIAO BABY!
 
BTW the starter relay is sometimes called the starter solenoid.
 
TJShea said:
Hello, once again an electrical stumper has me in its grips. Battery issues are difficult enough, now I have a complete electrical failure. Here is what happened. I have a 2 year old Die Hard Group 29NF. I keep it on a battery tender. I went to start the car for a weekly car show, so it is being driven. The interior light lit when I opened the door. Turned on the ignition, used the electric fuel; pump to prime the carb, as I always do. Turned the pump off, Turned the key to start, made a short start to crank noise with the starter, “click” then dead. Everything is dead. No lights, nothing. Yet the battery tender, I tried two of them, shows the battery fully charged. All connections are good, tight and clean, I tried a portable jumper, nothing. I cannot get jumper cables from another vehicle to the car where it sits.

I believe the battery may be shot, and there is a surface charge that “tricks” the battery tender into believing the battery is charged. Could this be it? Or could there be some master fuse or something along that line that could have gone out and rendered my entire system dead?

Getting a replacement battery is not that easy. The last place I ordered the current Die Hard is going out of business (Advance Auto Parts). NAPA will need to order one at least 1 week out, the same with Interstate. Just curious if there could be another culprit besides the battery that would render everything dead? While I was waiting for one I ordered, I thought I’d seek some more opinions. Hopefully, it is just a bad battery......again Thanks in advance.
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I'd bet you have a poor connection or bad cable somewhere. As others have said, dont ignore the ground path. Get a cheap VOM from Harbor Freight and check voltage drop from point to point while starter is supposedly engaged. Anything more than .5 VDC is likely excessive.
Be aware that battery chargers reporting "fully charged" mean only that the battery will accept no more charge. It does not mean the battery is in peak form, as a weak cell that will no longer accept a charge will not be caught without a test.
Incidentally, unless you insist on the OEM look of a 29NF battery, I have discovered that a modern H6 (group 48) will fit the battery tray of my 1960 perfectly. Measures roughly an inch shorter, an inch wider, and an inch shorter. I went with AGM construction which has higher capacity and reserve than OEM, and will hold charge better during long periods of non-use. Had to switch to a universal hold-down frame the fit the new battery and shorter bolts, but once done, it looks like it grew there. No one not specifically looking for it would ever catch it, the aftermarket hold-down attracts more attention than does the different battery.
I dont know the battery tray dimensions of a '57. The critical dimension of course is the width, which measures 6 7/8". Might be worth checking out.
 
A battery tender is not the same as a battery charger, most will not charge an almost dead battery. DO you have a set of Jumper cables? If you do then try "jump starting" the car. Install the jumper cables and make sure that the other vehicle is running . Let the vehicle run for 10 minutes or more before trying to start the BIRD... This will allow the Bird battery to charge a bit before trying to start. Good luck
 
TJShea said:
Hello, once again an electrical stumper has me in its grips. Battery issues are difficult enough, now I have a complete electrical failure. Here is what happened. I have a 2 year old Die Hard Group 29NF. I keep it on a battery tender. I went to start the car for a weekly car show, so it is being driven. The interior light lit when I opened the door. Turned on the ignition, used the electric fuel; pump to prime the carb, as I always do. Turned the pump off, Turned the key to start, made a short start to crank noise with the starter, “click” then dead. Everything is dead. No lights, nothing. Yet the battery tender, I tried two of them, shows the battery fully charged. All connections are good, tight and clean, I tried a portable jumper, nothing. I cannot get jumper cables from another vehicle to the car where it sits.

I believe the battery may be shot, and there is a surface charge that “tricks” the battery tender into believing the battery is charged. Could this be it? Or could there be some master fuse or something along that line that could have gone out and rendered my entire system dead?

Getting a replacement battery is not that easy. The last place I ordered the current Die Hard is going out of business (Advance Auto Parts). NAPA will need to order one at least 1 week out, the same with Interstate. Just curious if there could be another culprit besides the battery that would render everything dead? While I was waiting for one I ordered, I thought I’d seek some more opinions. Hopefully, it is just a bad battery......again Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
If you have no headlights you have no battery, the connection from the battery goes directly to the starter relay and from there to the headlight switch (same connection point) so unless the starter relay is shorting to ground pulling down all power (not likely without smoking wires) or you have a bad connection to the light switch you should have lights. Since the interior light came on a bad connection to the light switch is unlikely. As mentioned above the most likely culprit is a bad battery ground (ground is the negative terminal, Ford switched from positive ground in 56 along with 12v battery) to the block. There is a ground cable from the block to the dash.
 

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TJShea said:
I am using one of those. Does all sorts of things including a repair mode.
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I've had very good luck with the Harbor Freight 4 amp maintainer/rechargers. Their el cheapo ones that look like a wall wart are garbage however. Also had terrible service from the Battery Tender brand ones. Two of three went bad... one started getting so hot you could cook eggs on it.
 
Thank you all for the info and insights. Here's what I found. Everything is working again...yay! I bought an Ancel BA101 tester. Even I can understand it and how to work it. I have an 18 month old Diehard Group 29 in the car. Rated 420 CCA Battery tested 100% healthy and 100% charged after a stint on a Noco Genius10. I "fiddled" with the battery cables (thinks for all of the suggestions) , whacked the starter solenoid a few times, everything worked. Ran a cank test with the meter showed "normal," Time 2.10ms and 10.22V (whatever that means) Engine started perfectly, ran a system charging test. Result: "Voltage Normal". Loaded 14.53V, Unloaded 14.59V, Ripple 5mV. So far so good. I was able to obtain a replacement battery from Interstate Battery, a Group 29 NF VMD. I also called NAPA and they could get one to the store in about 5 days. So maybe they are becoming available again? Having a back-up battery seems prudent right now. I have a replacement starter solenoid and battery cables, to include one that runs from the solenoid to the starter, 'just in case." I am beginning to think that the solenoid was not the issue, nor the battery, but had an intermittent problem with the positive battery cable that runs to the solenoid. As was suggested I took the cables off, and while everything looked clean, I cleaned the posts and cable connections and put a very little dialectic grease on the posts and ensured the connections were all very tight. All seems good....so far. Thank you again for all the insights, and suggestions...it worked.

​

 
Tom Alpers said:
I've had very good luck with the Harbor Freight 4 amp maintainer/rechargers. Their el cheapo ones that look like a wall wart are garbage however. Also had terrible service from the Battery Tender brand ones. Two of three went bad... one started getting so hot you could cook eggs on it.
Click to expand...
Find out if any potential charger/maintainer purchase is 'smart' enough to desulfate a battery, few of the cheap ones are - like none. Cetek and NOCO have sophisticated algorithms to do so... They also have different charging profiles for flooded batteries, AGM, LiOn, etc.

And I would not use dielectric grease on battery posts - it is non conductive, same with spark plug wires, the stuff is meant to be used on the rubber boot surfaces ONLY and NOT any electrical metal parts.

Something like this is what one should use:
 
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