Tail lights and headlight switch 64 tbird

[Shadrack]

Hi Everyone,
I am sure you all are sick of me by now lol - but here goes:

I switched over to the petronix ignition today - yay!

Next, gauges were working fine, the headlight switch was weird though, you had to adjust it "just right," to get the lights to work. I noticed today that the lights stopped working. I installed a replacement switch, it is much tighter but still no gauge lights...Do you think that it could be a fuse? I thought a new headlight switch would fix the problem.

Also, my rear turn signals work but my tail lights and brake lights do not work otherwise apparently. I dunno, could this be fuse related?

 

[Shadrack]

Update.

By the way, I found the petronix in the trunk - BRAND NEW so that was part of the deal! Lots of other parts too, I'll sort and update accordingly.

So, all these electric gremlins running around. I got pissed. Disconnected the battery, popped the fuse panel, tore out the old crusty fuses, broke a few, cleaned it all out, then went in and got the vinegar. I sprayed it down and took a brass brush too it. It really cleaned up quickly! It evaporated quickly and I wiped it down. Then I sprayed all of it with contact cleaner. I went to AutoZone and bought all new fuses, dielectric grease, and more circuit cleaner. Came home sprayed it down again, wire brushed it and will let it sit tonight. I will get out there tomorrow and put new fuses in it with the grease. I will report back on how it does.

I have no idea why the headlight switch is doing that, no tail lights and no gauge lights. I ordered a new headlight switch from Larry's, looks like the original, not the one I bought from AutoZone - hopefully, this one works better.

 

[64ZCODE]

Hey Don, glad the Pertronix is working for you. Beyond that, you might have the wrong headlight switch. The one from Larry’s will be correct. Fingers crossed,

Doug

 

[Shadrack]

Hey Don, glad the Pertronix is working for you. Beyond that, you might have the wrong headlight switch. The one from Larry’s will be correct. Fingers crossed,

Doug

Hey Doug,

It idles better for sure, but it is a bit slower start cranks slowly, I think the timing might need to be advanced a bit. I'll look into that later - I am hoping this switch works - fingers and toes crossed

 

[64ZCODE]

Don - slow crank most likely battery is discharged or starter is getting tired, for example a worn commutator brush. If timing is too advanced you would hear the starter try to turn, then slow way down/stop, then try to turn again before finally starting.

If it's the starter getting tired, there are some posts we can point you to on how to rebuild it.

Stock initial timing spec is 6 degrees BTDC but in real life you can go as much as 15 degrees BTDC and your engine will thank you Doug

 

[Shadrack]

Don - slow crank most likely battery is discharged or starter is getting tired, for example a worn commutator brush. If timing is too advanced you would hear the starter try to turn, then slow way down/stop, then try to turn again before finally starting.

If it's the starter getting tired, there are some posts we can point you to on how to rebuild it.

Stock initial timing spec is 6 degrees BTDC but in real life, you can go as much as 15 degrees BTDC and your engine will thank you Doug

Hey Doug!
That is good to know I can rebuild the starter! I may keep it as a spare and buy a replacement - is there a preferred merchant I should know about? It used to crank very fast and start. Now it's like, WOMP, WOMP - then start. I am a little confused about timing - how does it affect starting and running?

 

[64ZCODE]

Hi Don. I think others with more experience with these starters could better advise on where to buy a replacement starter and how to make sure it's the right one.

Advanced timing delivers the spark earlier in the power stroke so there is more time for the fuel to burn before it is pushed out in the exhaust stroke. More burn = more power. If it's too advanced, then the engine will ping due to detonation, not a good situation, and the engine may have difficulty starting up. If it's too retarded, then you just don't get as much power.

These old FE engines need a lot of advance. You set initial timing advance when the engine is idling with the vacuum to the distributor disconnected. The vacuum advance when connected changes timing advance under different running conditions. Also the distributor has mechanical advance which advances the timing based on how fast the distributor is rotating.

One more wrinkle: there are two ways to hook up the vacuum source for the vacuum advance. It can be hooked up to ported vacuum on the carburetor, which increases vacuum as the carb butterflies open. Or, it can be hooked up to manifold vacuum, which has the greatest vacuum when the butterflies are closed. Either is OK, I'm currently using manifold vacuum and am finding it increases throttle response as compared to ported vacuum.

Aegrescit medendo ("burn not your house to get rid of the mouse"),

Doug

 

[64ZCODE]

Don, is the battery fully charged? Would be a shame to replace the starter if not needed!

Doug

 

[fordrodsteven]

well.... You might find out which circuits have issues when you put the fuses in and re-connect the battery! Could be good! Could be bad! But it will tell you what you need to look at. You could also reconnect the battery before installing fuses. Then check with the multimeter as you install each fuse to see which circuits are calling for power or are shorted out. The fuse should blow when you put it in if there is a short. But if there is something where wires are crossed and calling for power when it shouldn't you may find that too! Do you have a wiring diagram for the car? You really need a wiring diagram to do proper troubleshooting of circuits as you sort things out.
Are you going to try to get the wiring all sorted before your inspection or are you going to try to just make things work to get past inspection then make things proper afterwards?
And... Thank you Doug (64Zcode) for jumping in to try to help Don. It's been a very long time since I've worked on a Thunderbird of 1964 - 66 vintage. Sometimes I forget some of the idiosyncrasies.
I remember back in the mid '70's when I had my '66 convertible. I didn't have the internet or the network to find out the information I needed. I ended up taking the car off the road for a couple years because I couldn't get the brake lights / directionals to function. But I digress…..

 

[64ZCODE]

Hi Steve

I have had a menagerie of cars so indiosyncracies are sort of my lot in life. One of the nice things about the flair birds is how much they have in common and the availability of parts. When I look at the shop manual for my '64, it is what it is. There is a limited amount of optional equipment, otherwise what you see in the manual is what's in the garage.

Doug

 

[Gary Tayman]

The 1964 Thunderbird headlight switch has been a tough one to find. Mine was bad; had the problem of headlights switching off and back on, from those "safety" contacts inside. A certain shop replaced it, but with the wrong switch and a little extra engineering. Worked for a few weeks, then back at it. I think the issue is the extra current drawn by those taillights. Scouting around, someone sent me a switch from a Lincoln and told me it would work. It's not exactly the same switch, but it DOES work and it's still there.

Today I believe you can buy the correct switch brand new.

 

[64ZCODE]

Gary, your memory is probably better than mine (sorry, that's not saying much!). I remember in one of these posts that some opined on the correct PN for the switch, but I'll be darned if I can find it.

Doug

 

[Gary Tayman]

Seems to me if you go back a few years, you could get a switch for just about any year Bird except the 64. And it seems the big problem with the 64 switch is that breaker thing inside acting up. But switches from other cars won't work because the taillights draw more current, requiring a heftier switch. You could make the thing fit, but it would fail in short order.

The breaker contacts are a safety thing. The idea behind it is to prevent a sudden headlights failure if a fuse blows. Instead of a fuse (I'm sure there's a bigger fuse in the mix as well), the bi-metal breaker points will heat up and open, then close again. So if the headlight circuit is drawing too much current, the lights will shut off -- but assuming you're going 70 miles an hour and about to go off a cliff, the lights will come back on again. They will flash on and off, to prevent melted wiring or a fire, but will also allow you to see where you're going so you can pull over to safety.

The problem, these switches get old, the contacts get dirty, and the breaker will open even with normal current. You can pull the switch, clean the contacts, and put it back in, but it will act up again before too long. These cars also have the problem of the dash getting hot. Why? Because there's a little transmission access hole under the console, plugged by a rubber cover. The cover falls out and engine heat makes the dash hot -- and voila! Headlights go out. Yes, the entire dadblamed car is built this way! Everything affects everything else.

Today it appears replacement headlight switches are indeed available now. Thank goodness! Not sure about that access hole cover; if so please tell me so I can order one. Better than duck tape.

 

[Shadrack]

well.... You might find out which circuits have issues when you put the fuses in and re-connect the battery! Could be good! Could be bad! But it will tell you what you need to look at. You could also reconnect the battery before installing fuses. Then check with the multimeter as you install each fuse to see which circuits are calling for power or are shorted out. The fuse should blow when you put it in if there is a short. But if there is something where wires are crossed and calling for power when it shouldn't you may find that too! Do you have a wiring diagram for the car? You really need a wiring diagram to do proper troubleshooting of circuits as you sort things out.
Are you going to try to get the wiring all sorted before your inspection or are you going to try to just make things work to get past inspection then make things proper afterwards?
And... Thank you Doug (64Zcode) for jumping in to try to help Don. It's been a very long time since I've worked on a Thunderbird of 1964 - 66 vintage. Sometimes I forget some of the idiosyncrasies.
I remember back in the mid '70's when I had my '66 convertible. I didn't have the internet or the network to find out the information I needed. I ended up taking the car off the road for a couple years because I couldn't get the brake lights / directionals to function. But I digress…..

Hello!
I am going to order a diagram if I can. I have been taking care of mom all day so the tbird has been resting. I am hoping tomorrow I can get the fuses in and see what comes to life!!! I did bridge a contact and the interior lights came on!!! So also, I think...bridged the contact for the flashers and I heard it click...I think. I ordered a new stop light relay - would that cause a lack of taillights and brake lights? The idea is to pass inspection really and then to get down and dirty! I really appreciate all the help guys Doug, Steve, all of you!!! These birds are awesome - I am going to try to fuses tomorrow and i will let you know.

 

[Shadrack]

Don, is the battery fully charged? Would be a shame to replace the starter if not needed!

Doug

Battery man not be full, I will have to check - but it just seems to start different. It runs better, but just starts a bit slower now, slower to crank.

 

[Shadrack]

Hi Steve

I have had a menagerie of cars so indiosyncracies are sort of my lot in life. One of the nice things about the flair birds is how much they have in common and the availability of parts. When I look at the shop manual for my '64, it is what it is. There is a limited amount of optional equipment, otherwise what you see in the manual is what's in the garage.

Doug

Seems to me if you go back a few years, you could get a switch for just about any year Bird except the 64. And it seems the big problem with the 64 switch is that breaker thing inside acting up. But switches from other cars won't work because the taillights draw more current, requiring a heftier switch. You could make the thing fit, but it would fail in short order.

The breaker contacts are a safety thing. The idea behind it is to prevent a sudden headlights failure if a fuse blows. Instead of a fuse (I'm sure there's a bigger fuse in the mix as well), the bi-metal breaker points will heat up and open, then close again. So if the headlight circuit is drawing too much current, the lights will shut off -- but assuming you're going 70 miles an hour and about to go off a cliff, the lights will come back on again. They will flash on and off, to prevent melted wiring or a fire, but will also allow you to see where you're going so you can pull over to safety.

The problem, these switches get old, the contacts get dirty, and the breaker will open even with normal current. You can pull the switch, clean the contacts, and put it back in, but it will act up again before too long. These cars also have the problem of the dash getting hot. Why? Because there's a little transmission access hole under the console, plugged by a rubber cover. The cover falls out and engine heat makes the dash hot -- and voila! Headlights go out. Yes, the entire dadblamed car is built this way! Everything affects everything else.

Today it appears replacement headlight switches are indeed available now. Thank goodness! Not sure about that access hole cover; if so please tell me so I can order one. Better than duck tape.

Hey Gary,
Many thanks to you as well! Where is this access hole? Sounds like I need to get some insulation lol. I ordered a switch from Larry's so I am hoping it will work well. I also ordered a new stop light relay as well. Fingers crossed.

 

[Gary Tayman]

The access hole I'm referring to is on the transmission hump. If you remove the right console panel it's right there. The heat from the motor gets in, and has no place to go, so the console and dash get hot -- after awhile it's hot to the touch. The cover is a piece of rubber. I would love to get a replacement, or hear what others have done to fix this. In my own car, this cover seems to be off more than on, because I'm constantly working on the radio. Just added a prototype HD Radio, and uncovered a glitch that Detroit missed. It was fixed before the first one was sold -- but now I need to remove it again, to fix it in my OWN car.

 

[fordrodsteven]

Seems to me if you go back a few years, you could get a switch for just about any year Bird except the 64. And it seems the big problem with the 64 switch is that breaker thing inside acting up. But switches from other cars won't work because the taillights draw more current, requiring a heftier switch. You could make the thing fit, but it would fail in short order.

The breaker contacts are a safety thing. The idea behind it is to prevent a sudden headlights failure if a fuse blows. Instead of a fuse (I'm sure there's a bigger fuse in the mix as well), the bi-metal breaker points will heat up and open, then close again. So if the headlight circuit is drawing too much current, the lights will shut off -- but assuming you're going 70 miles an hour and about to go off a cliff, the lights will come back on again. They will flash on and off, to prevent melted wiring or a fire, but will also allow you to see where you're going so you can pull over to safety.

The problem, these switches get old, the contacts get dirty, and the breaker will open even with normal current. You can pull the switch, clean the contacts, and put it back in, but it will act up again before too long. These cars also have the problem of the dash getting hot. Why? Because there's a little transmission access hole under the console, plugged by a rubber cover. The cover falls out and engine heat makes the dash hot -- and voila! Headlights go out. Yes, the entire dadblamed car is built this way! Everything affects everything else.

Today it appears replacement headlight switches are indeed available now. Thank goodness! Not sure about that access hole cover; if so please tell me so I can order one. Better than duck tape.

I know some of the guys with Reatta's put in a relay in the headlight circuit so that ALL the power is not going through the switch that way the switches are not getting overheated and melting components inside (late 1980's vintage so a lot of plastic in the switch)….. Wouldn't it be possible to wire the headlight switch to operate a relay to move the big amperage through the relay rather than the switch? Wouldn't that help with the problem of the lights cycling on / off?

 

[Shadrack]

Hey all!
Update on the gauge lights! I cleaned my fuse box and replaced all the fuses, the gauge lights work well now!! I did order a stop light relay for the car - getting it Friday.

 

[Shadrack]

Don, is the battery fully charged? Would be a shame to replace the starter if not needed!

Doug

Hey Doug,

Mom was resting well so I went outside to test the battery with my multimeter. It was really slow cranking today. I set up the multimeter on the windshield and hooked it up to the battery. I turned on the headlights. The voltage dropped to 11.65. Turned the lights back off and it jumped back up to 12.6
Turned the key to run, and I hit the starter button - it dropped down to 4.75 volts! I'm thinking the battery is bad lol. I'll take it to autozone to confirm/buy a new one - this eBay car has come with a great deal of surprises......thanks for the suggestion on this one!!!