What's the best source for a 1964 motor?

Gary Tayman

Gary Tayman

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Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Thunderbird Year
1964
Hope everybody else is having a wonderful Christmas season. Personally, I am at my wit's end.

Business has dropped off like a rock the past three months. It's not just me, it's nationwide. No income and lots of bills; what a great combination. My wife got rear-ended on her way to work, hit and run. So much fun dealing with insurance. I can fill the page with more problems but you get the idea. No tree, no presents, just pretty much sit here and try to survive.

On top of all that, the T-Bird is down yet again. losing anti-freeze. I finally got it in the shop, need it while my wife's car is getting fixed. But -- it turns out, appears to be a head gasket. Translation: wife is screaming for me to get rid of the car. But, this motor has been a real mess since the ripoff artist in Wisconsin sold it to me. Blow-by, oil leaks like crazy, just been putting up with it.

I've said for years I want it rebuilt. Never happens, daily emergencies keep draining my bank account. But, assuming I happen upon a windfall, what do you recommend? Should I rebuild this, or buy a crate engine or short block? If I buy one, is there a recommendation? I'd like to hear comments.
 

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Gary Tayman said:
Hope everybody else is having a wonderful Christmas season. Personally, I am at my wit's end.

Business has dropped off like a rock the past three months. It's not just me, it's nationwide. No income and lots of bills; what a great combination. My wife got rear-ended on her way to work, hit and run. So much fun dealing with insurance. I can fill the page with more problems but you get the idea. No tree, no presents, just pretty much sit here and try to survive.

On top of all that, the T-Bird is down yet again. losing anti-freeze. I finally got it in the shop, need it while my wife's car is getting fixed. But -- it turns out, appears to be a head gasket. Translation: wife is screaming for me to get rid of the car. But, this motor has been a real mess since the ripoff artist in Wisconsin sold it to me. Blow-by, oil leaks like crazy, just been putting up with it.

I've said for years I want it rebuilt. Never happens, daily emergencies keep draining my bank account. But, assuming I happen upon a windfall, what do you recommend? Should I rebuild this, or buy a crate engine or short block? If I buy one, is there a recommendation? I'd like to hear comments.
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You really need to give more information about the engine for someone to be able to tell you what you need to do. Rebuilds are easy and even you can do one. Get a motors manual and use your friend Google for more instructions. You remove the heads and send them out for repair. Do the rebuild in steps so you pay for it as you go. Also what kind of miles does the engine have on it. That will tell you if you will need to bore it out and replace the pistons or just hone the cylinders and install new rings and bearing throughout the engine. Give us some data.
 
Hey Gary. Sorry to hear that business is off and glad your wife made it through the accident OK.

If it was my car, I'd try to repair/rebuild the motor and if that looks like it will be too expensive, keep an eye out for a good used motor. There's a parts for sale/wanted section on this forum and it might be worth it to put the word out there.

Are you convinced the head gasket is blown? Feel free to share any symptoms and diagnostic information.

Good luck with this!

Doug
 
Hi Gary, Sorry to hear about all the crap going on but here's my take on the Thunderbird....Is the bottom end of the engine otherwise okay? I have pulled heads and just replaced head gaskets and have had a perfectly good running engine afterwards. Is the oil blow by due to bad piston rings or bad valve stem seals on the heads? Oil leaks are usually easily fixed by replacing leaky gaskets or tightening bolts on covers to improve the seal. There could be a LOT wrong with the engine or it cold be just the heads. Rebuilt heads will have valve stem seals replaced and valve seats reground for better operation of the engine. The heads would also be checked for cracks when at the shop being rebuilt. A blown head gasket, depending on where the break is, could cause oil leakage and also loss of coolant.
If there isn't any bearing noises when the engine is running I would not even go into the bottom end of the engine.
If you have a blown main rear seal leaking oil it can be repaired without going into a full blown rebuild or replacement of the engine. You can also try tightening bolts or replacing the oil pan gasket.
I would do a compression test and possibly a leak down test. You can find out a lot with only a compression test. Another thing I would do is remove the valve covers and measure the valve lift before unbolting anything.

MY inclination is to just pull the heads for a professional rebuild and check for ring ridge at the tops of the cylinders once the heads are off. You can get a ridge reamer to take care of ridge if there is one there. Again, that's my personal inclination.
 
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Good points all, Steven.

Gary, if the bottom end is OK other than finding the oil leaks, then installing rebuilt heads could be relatively inexpensive and you'll be back on the road. And, one can live with oil leaks for a long time, that's what oil drip pans are for.

Doug
 
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Okay, here's a little more on the motor:

I had already established my radio business as part-time, until one day I was laid off my job. I then decided to go full-time, but this would require additional promotion in the form of car shows and swap meets. So I needed my project car to at least be reliable. I was having motor issues, so the shop recommended I get a new motor. I bought a rebuilt engine from a Thunderbird parts dealer in Wisconsin. Shop put it in, then told me to watch it as it had burned a full two quarts of oil just tuning it up in the garage. Sure enough, it was a mess. I had the motor removed and sent back, he supposedly fixed it and returned it. Still burns oil. I had compression tested, it's 85 to 90, depending on cylinder. Wrong rings? Bad boring job? I don't know. I had no choice but to be stuck with it, figuring someday I'll have it rebuilt. Years later here we are.

It would be so easy to pick one or the other, get a working motor and put it in. But business has been slow this past few months, and there's no money for it.

So here's where it gets frustrating. Seems the auto trade, more than any other marketing segment, has its share of stupid, incompetent people, where some have no idea what they're doing and others belong in prison. I've had rebuilt motors cause headaches (before this one). I've had new wire wheels collapse on me. For certain things I've paid again and again, with the car not getting fixed. Then when it comes to my OWN products, I get passed over as people flock to more expensive junk. I just had a major parts supplier stiff me on a telephone appointment. Wow!

I think the REAL answer is getting more aggressive with marketing. I'd like a new motor, or getting this one rebuilt properly. But I might be forced to punt with a head gasket.
 
Is it making a bearing rap sound when running? Can you hear piston slap? Maybe it used a lot of oil at that tune up because something was wrong with how the PCV system is hooked up. If all the cylinders are within 85 to 90 pounds it should run just fine. Does it constantly blow blue smoke out the exhaust while running? Is there blue smoke out the exhaust just after start up but then stops? Blue smoke is burning oil. If it stops shortly after start up (warm up) it is a classic symptom of bad valve stem seals. Blue smoke constantly while running, especially after someone has been into the engine, could be improperly installed piston rings. If the solid rings have a chamfer on them they need to be installed in the correct direction so the engine builds good compression and does not just let the oil blow by. The oil ring could be improperly assembled and would also cause excessive oil consumption. Another thing I have seen is the rings all assembled with the ends all lined up in row straight up / down. The rings are supposed to be staggered so that the ends are oriented away from each other. When I have done it I placed the rings so that the ends are 120 degrees apart from each other. LIke I said earlier there could be a lot of things going on but....

If the engine is not chugging out blue smoke, if it's not rapping bearings loudly, if the cylinders have compression readings within 15% of each other, then at this point I would try doing just the heads. Worst case is the engine still needs a rebuild but then you would already have the heads done.

I have seen quite a few things in cars that have made other people wonder. I have seen radiators leak at the trans cooling tubes inside and load up a transmission with coolant. I had a car that kept putting oil into the radiator and making it all milky. Compression was fine. Problem was a cracked block at the oil chamber where the pump pushed oil into the water jacket and everything else checked out perfectly. It took me a while to find that one. I've had head gaskets blow between cylinders. I have had a head gasket leak water into the oil and oil into the water.

But I digress... Any way my final point earlier was get the heads done. Worst case is you will still need a rebuild of the lower end but the heads will already be done.
 
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Not so much blue smoke as black. It will smoke when I start it, and when I step on the accelerator.
 
Black smoke is a sign of running too rich. (unburned fuel) Poorly adjusted carburetor, or timing, or spark plugs not firing. Also could possibly be a distributor problem. Most likely cause though is usually improper adjustment of carburetor or too big a carb on the engine.
 
Hi Gary. In all this exchange I’ve questions about the potential head gasket issue. With the engine idling, are there bubbles rising up in the radiator? Is the crankcase oil looking milky? Has the engine refused to turn over, i.e. because there is water in a cylinder? And, how much coolant is being lost over time?

I’m sure you’re right about more marketing as long as the underlying business is viable with a target audience. If it’s us old geezers, that might be an issue...

Doug
 
Gary Tayman said:
Not so much blue smoke as black. It will smoke when I start it, and when I step on the accelerator.
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Hi Gary, I hope that a review and possible change to your business plan sets you up for big success!

Regarding black smoke.... If it belches black right after start up and lessens after warm the problem there would be an improperly adjusted choke. If it blasts out a puff of black smoke when stepping hard on the pedal it's a sign that it's getting a lot of fuel and not burning it all. Sometimes that would be perfectly normal depending how hard you mashed down on the throttle.
 
I understand that 390’s were produced ‘61-‘76. Are they all bolt on interchangeable?
 
Gary Tayman said:
Hope everybody else is having a wonderful Christmas season. Personally, I am at my wit's end.

Business has dropped off like a rock the past three months. It's not just me, it's nationwide. No income and lots of bills; what a great combination. My wife got rear-ended on her way to work, hit and run. So much fun dealing with insurance. I can fill the page with more problems but you get the idea. No tree, no presents, just pretty much sit here and try to survive.

On top of all that, the T-Bird is down yet again. losing anti-freeze. I finally got it in the shop, need it while my wife's car is getting fixed. But -- it turns out, appears to be a head gasket. Translation: wife is screaming for me to get rid of the car. But, this motor has been a real mess since the ripoff artist in Wisconsin sold it to me. Blow-by, oil leaks like crazy, just been putting up with it.

I've said for years I want it rebuilt. Never happens, daily emergencies keep draining my bank account. But, assuming I happen upon a windfall, what do you recommend? Should I rebuild this, or buy a crate engine or short block? If I buy one, is there a recommendation? I'd like to hear comments.
Click to expand...
 
Sorry to hear your bad luck, Before you spend more of your money. There is a 390 forum on the web, These guys are very savvy on all 390 issues. https://www.fordfe.com/
 
Gary,
Man so sorry to hear about all the issues personally and the car. I have a 63 bird and had the same issue. As mentioned from ICON56 go on a FE forum and the amount of knowledge on those sites is staggering. AS far as my problem goes it was a few issues but mainly was a very bad original carb. It was dumping fuel even when the car was off! So tons of smoke and as it was running then fouled the plugs and also my PCV was bad and allowing oil to bypass it was a mess. New PCV valve, hoses, all vacuum hose as well as the one that ties into the vacuum reservoir was sucking in major air is also a problem also installed a used but good edelbrock carb (1406) and new plugs, and she runs like a champ now and no smoke. I could not believe the difference the car b made in all areas. Too much fuel causes all kind of issues as far as it running and what it is doing.

Some advise I would start with easy things first. Sometimes (I do) we go to the worse thing it could be. If you start with some of the easy stuff and plan on keeping the car then the easy stuff will already be completed in the event of a rebuild. The FE motor is a very good motor IMO.

Also if you do not have a shop manual - get one - they are priceless. Faxon auto literature or e-bay and you will be so glad you did.
 
When I had my 61 Bird, These guys really helped me out..Can't say enough about the forum.
 
Turns out there is some good news, sort of.

The head gasket checks out okay.

The problem is, I keep losing anti-freeze, and it's been in the shop over and over for this. Each time, a fitting is replaced, or a second hose clamp, or hoses themselves, or whatever, and it's pressure tested. Still having a problem. This (different) shop looked it over and found initially nothing, but knowing the story behind this motor, and seeing the drippy oil everywhere, then noticing the motor misses when first started cold, that gasket is very suspicious. Today they had a chance to really spend time with it, and determined the gasket is not leaking. There are hose leaks (again?) and the radiator is starting to leak. They are sending it to Sarasota Radiator (music to my ears, these people are great) and I should have my car back later this week.

However I still wanted to get opinions, knowing that the day will come when I want something better. There is a shop in Bradenton with a great reputation (Bad Iron) that will be my choice for rebuild, but I was wondering if I could be better served with a new motor. I suppose I'll still have some time to decide.

Meanwhile, I think this car's theme song should change from "Fun, Fun, Fun" to "Green River."

More good news, business is suddenly picking up, so at least I should get my bills paid to the end of the year.
 
I just saw you comment in another post that you are still losing anti-freeze. You have said the head gaskets are good. Is there anti-freeze dripping when the car is parked? Is it just losing anti-freeze level in the radiator? It has gotten to the point where my guess would be;
If radiator level dropping could be an improperly installed intake manifold gasket or even the wrong intake gasket. I've seen that before and I strongly suggest you check that before pulling the engine out of the car for a rebuild. Also a bad or improper intake gasket would cause improper vacuum. It would run rough, It could suck antifreeze into the cylinders when running. It would cause issues with combustion which could make exhaust blow black. (especially if someone did a tune up and adjusted the carb jets to make it run a little better thereby partially covering up the bad intake manifold gasket issue). If it has the wrong intake gaskets it could also be part of your oil leaking problem. Another possibility could be cracked head or block.

Maybe If dripping when parked has anyone looked at the expansion plugs (otherwise called freeze plugs). One might not be properly installed or seated in the hole.

Just a couple of thoughts...
 
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Actually I found it, and it's easy enough. This shop replaced the upper and lower radiator hoses as a precaution, and it appears to be leaking at the upper hose fitting (surge tank). I'm tempted to just tighten it and be done with it, but it seems this fitting has been persnickety in the past. Reseat the hose? Two clamps? I'll let them do it.

It's a relief that it's not the motor. Yes I'll have to bite the bullet one day and I'm leaning keeping this motor and rebuilding it, but I can put it off. If the gasket were bad it would run rough and the oil would be milky -- it's fine. But thanks for thinking of me.
 
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