'57, 312 power brakes failed... aka OH CRAP!

[dickday0]

Yep, I am the luckiest guy on the planet.

I picked the Tbird up from the shop last Friday, got in and took it for a quick test drive. When I came back, my only comment was that there was something still wrong with the power brakes. The in's and out's of the entire power booster system were explained to me and I also got the 'you're just used to disc brakes' lecture. When they were done, I reminded them that I was probably driving long before they were born, I know the difference between drum and disc and there WAS something not right with the brakes.

Finally, I got the GM to take it for a spin. He agreed, he couldn't eve get the brakes to 'pump up'. I knew that I would be back there the next week and asked if they were safe to use until my next appt. (my first mistake). They assured me that things should be fine until my appointment.

I left their place and took Hwy 81 South to the Madison Courthouse (I've been their on-staff programmer since 2003). Hwy 81 has a posted speed limit of 65, I didn't speed and kept lots of open space between me and the car ahead. I had some things to do in the courthouse and locked the doors of the bird and went in. I came back out about 30 minutes later and watched as people took pictures

When I was done, I got back on Hwy 81 and headed North, back up to the city. As I was slowing down on the outskirts of the city, the brakes felt soft but it slowed me down enough to stop. I made 3 stops while in town and then headed for home.

On a county road, trying to slow down for a train crossing (no train in sight) my brakes totally gave out. I used a combination of down-shifting (auto), the hand brake (did nothing) and finally shut the engine off and coasted to a stop.

The shop had me look for fluid under the car at each wheel and under the engine/tranny. Dry as a bone. I had a wrecker pick it up and take it back to the shop. Later they discovered that the booster was full of brake fluid. I was told that I needed a new booster, so I ordered one from CASCO (Wonderful people!)

This all happened on Friday. Saturday, I called my shop to ask if it was possible that the master cylinder could have failed and caused the booster to die. I was told that was a definite possibility, so I ordered a new master cylinder, it should be here tomorrow.

Some I have talked to have said there is no way the master cylinder could have caused the booster to fill up with brake fluid. Others have said the opposite.

Thoughts?

Sorry for the long rant

 

[BudP]

Sorry for your difficulties. GM is the final quality assurance in that shop and he should not have let that car on the road. You were wise and prudent to drive carefully. I suspect an obstruction. I wouldn't accept the services again until a cause is found and shown to me. If they can't identify the cause, I would settle on some form of payment (partial, not full) and have the car taken to another shop.

 

[Wilding]

Yep, I am the luckiest guy on the planet.

I picked the Tbird up from the shop last Friday, got in and took it for a quick test drive. When I came back, my only comment was that there was something still wrong with the power brakes. The in's and out's of the entire power booster system were explained to me and I also got the 'you're just used to disc brakes' lecture. When they were done, I reminded them that I was probably driving long before they were born, I know the difference between drum and disc and there WAS something not right with the brakes.

Finally, I got the GM to take it for a spin. He agreed, he couldn't eve get the brakes to 'pump up'. I knew that I would be back there the next week and asked if they were safe to use until my next appt. (my first mistake). They assured me that things should be fine until my appointment.

I left their place and took Hwy 81 South to the Madison Courthouse (I've been their on-staff programmer since 2003). Hwy 81 has a posted speed limit of 65, I didn't speed and kept lots of open space between me and the car ahead. I had some things to do in the courthouse and locked the doors of the bird and went in. I came back out about 30 minutes later and watched as people took pictures

When I was done, I got back on Hwy 81 and headed North, back up to the city. As I was slowing down on the outskirts of the city, the brakes felt soft but it slowed me down enough to stop. I made 3 stops while in town and then headed for home.

On a county road, trying to slow down for a train crossing (no train in sight) my brakes totally gave out. I used a combination of down-shifting (auto), the hand brake (did nothing) and finally shut the engine off and coasted to a stop.

The shop had me look for fluid under the car at each wheel and under the engine/tranny. Dry as a bone. I had a wrecker pick it up and take it back to the shop. Later they discovered that the booster was full of brake fluid. I was told that I needed a new booster, so I ordered one from CASCO (Wonderful people!)

This all happened on Friday. Saturday, I called my shop to ask if it was possible that the master cylinder could have failed and caused the booster to die. I was told that was a definite possibility, so I ordered a new master cylinder, it should be here tomorrow.

Some I have talked to have said there is no way the master cylinder could have caused the booster to fill up with brake fluid. Others have said the opposite.

Thoughts?

Sorry for the long rant

Yes, brake fluid can leak into the booster although I doubt it could "fill up" since the booster has a fairly large volume compared to the brake system. The result of your leak would be like any other leak in the system, i.e. the brakes quit working, except in this case the leak doesn't hit the ground where you can see it. Hope you ordered the correct master cylinder, the one on the booster, not the firewall. BudP is correct, you need to find another shop. Let us know how it goes.

 

[Gary Tayman]

VERY COMMON PROBLEM, and this is why in many cases you can buy a brake booster with the master cylinder on it. This has happened to me on my 64.
But you ask, if the booster is full of fluid, could it have come from the master cylinder? WHERE ELSE could it POSSIBLY come from? Did it fall from the sky like manna from heaven, and land on top of your booster? Is there a secret passageway from one of the front wheels? Yes, fluid in the booster comes from the master, and will in short order rot the rubber parts inside the booster causing it to fail. Replace both.

 

[dickday0]

VERY COMMON PROBLEM, and this is why in many cases you can buy a brake booster with the master cylinder on it. This has happened to me on my 64.
But you ask, if the booster is full of fluid, could it have come from the master cylinder? WHERE ELSE could it POSSIBLY come from? Did it fall from the sky like manna from heaven, and land on top of your booster? Is there a secret passageway from one of the front wheels? Yes, fluid in the booster comes from the master, and will in short order rot the rubber parts inside the booster causing it to fail. Replace both.

But you ask, if the booster is full of fluid, could it have come from the master cylinder? WHERE ELSE could it POSSIBLY come from? Did it fall from the sky like manna from heaven, and land on top of your booster? Is there a secret passageway from one of the front wheels?

Since I know very little about the inner workings of cars/brakes etc., that was a valid question. Today, I know 100% more about brakes than I did 2 weeks ago.

 

[dickday0]

Happy, but expensive, ending.

The folks at CASCO had a rebuilt booster on the shelf and got it out to us asap along with a bevy of other items that the shop may have needed.

The most upsetting thing about this whole incident (other than realizing that I had no brakes) is that I said from the day we got the car home, that there was something not right with the brakes. Everyone (several shops and some friends) kept telling me that I was just used to disc brakes and that drum brakes are not as responsive.

My first car was a '50 Studebaker, which was followed by a string of other drum-brake gems. I may not fully understand how they work, but I do know how they should stop you.

Some time back, I posted a list of '57 options, one of which was power brakes. In their advertising, they said a driver should be able to place a light bulb between the brake pedal and the drivers' foot and never break the bulb while stopping the car.

The car is now driveable. The brakes are wonderful. Life is good.

 

[64ZCODE]

A bit of a delayed response on this. The fluid level in the master cylinder reservoir on my '64 was gradually dropping and I was dutifully topping it off but not seeing any brake fluid under the car. Then I read on this forum a post by someone who's daughter was driving his car, brakes failed and she sailed through an intersection fortunately not running into anyone, and guess what, the MC was empty because all the fluid had leaked into the booster. The light bulb went off in my brain and sure enough, I had 5 inches of fluid in the booster.

I think this forum has saved my life a few times and certainly has saved me $.

 

[Gary Tayman]

As I commented earlier, this is a common issue. But that's not all. When I first got this car many years ago, I was having problems with the brake booster. The shop manual showed how to rebuild it, which I did, getting used parts from a dealer who was willing to sell them. Worked great, brakes felt wonderful, life was good -- at least in the brake department.

Then one day I noticed a loss of fluid. Sure enough, fluid going into the booster. It's only a matter fo time before the fluid rots out the rubber parts and the booster gives way, so I bought a rebuilt booster/master combination. Since that moment, the brakes felt funny -- hard to press at first, then press slightly hard and you go through the windshield. I ordered a second, then a third, no difference. Then I found a shop in Ft. Lauderdale that rebuilds boosters, so I sent it to them. They found nothing but replaced a few parts anyway. Same thing. I lived with it. I've since had this car in a couple different shops; they assured me the brakes are in great shape. Long story short, I put up with it for years. Then last year I was driving home when someone pulled beside me and said my brake lights were not working. So I bought a new switch. Not only did the switch not fix it, but the fluid looked like molasses. Took it to a show, which did some rewiring (and installed the relay mod), then rebuilt the brakes completely. Back brakes apparently were not working at all! The lines are stainless steel, and are good, so they stayed. Booster is fine. Everything else, including hoses, is new. Brakes now feel wonderful! No, they're not as precise and positive as my newer cars with disks, but there's nothing wrong with them. Normal driving, it's hard to tell the difference.